VIR this past weekend

#21

Yep, truth be told it’s the big variation in launches at the back of the pack and also what they drilled into us in the comp classroom sessions (caughCarter). Like my slippy no grippy non limited slip or my watching the yellow flags on the pit wall for Saturday’s start while the stalled car was getting pushed out. Yellow flags never dropped, unlike the green flag, and I was in neutral…

#22

All:

This is a long post but I recommend you read it if you are concerned about how on track incidents will be considered in all Spec E30 races in every NASA Region this season. All quoted rules come from the NASA CCR and you may see a few grammatical errors when reading the quotes. The quotes were copied directly from the CCR.

In light of the incidents that occurred at the first two race weekends in the Mid Atlantic Region, NASA Mid Atlantic Region owner, and Spec E30 racer Chris Cobetto and I have had several lengthy telephone conversations. He and I agree that the procedures following an incident should be consistent, fair, and must follow the guidelines that appear in the NASA CCR. As this region enjoys large fields and continues to grow, this is even more important. I consulted with Chris not because he is a Spec E30 racer, but because he is the Mid Atlantic Regional Director, the highest official in this region. If he were not a Spec E30 racer, I still would have discussed this with him.

In the event of an incident, we will use the following procedures.

The drivers involved in the incident will discuss, in a calm and respectful way, the incident. If they agree that it was a “racing incident� and that no fault should be assigned, that is the end of the incident.

If one driver feels that the other driver caused body contact…

“27.4.1 Body Contact
Body Contact is defined as any part of any car making physical contact with another car significant enough to cause one (1) car to sustain body damage or to be significantly knocked off of the racing line�

…and is at fault, he must report the incident to me, the acting Race Director, or whomever is the acting race director in that Region. NASA Mid Atlantic has given all Series Directors the right to be the acting Race Director but other Regions may not. I/he/she will then form an IRB while both drivers fill out a “body contact report form.�

“27.1 Purpose and Intent
It is the purpose of the Incident Review Board - IRB - to review cases of on-track
incidences involving driver conduct and body contact. The main intent of the IRB is to assure that matters involving on-track incidences are handled in a fair, consistent, and swift manner. The IRB shall review each case, determine fault, and assign penalties.�

More information on the IRB

“27.2 Format
The Race Director shall appoint or approve a Chief of the IRB. The Race Director may
function to fill this position if needed. This Chief shall report directly to the Race Director. The IRB shall be made up of three (3) to five (5) drivers, crews, and/or Officials. Each IRB member must be a participating member of NASA, and have at least one (1) year of racing experience. The Race Director has the power and authority to waive these requirements, or exclude individuals for due cause. Any participating driver may attend and audit IRB sessions, subject to the approval of the Race Director. The IRB shall constantly recruit new volunteers to sit in on (audit) sessions and become properly trained. The IRB is encouraged to make attending IRB sessions a requirement for some drivers as part of their due penalties. To be a voting member of the IRB, the person must have fully read and understood these guidelines, and must have audited at least one (1) IRB session.�

When making decisions, The IRB will use the following definition to determine if a driver caused damage.

“27.4.2 Damage
Damage from an incident is limited to the following definition: Any sheet metal,
fiberglass, or other body material, deformity significant enough to cause the NASA Officials to enforce the “50/50 rule,� thus requiring repairs. Damage to suspension or other mechanical components are not included in this definition. Damage to plastic or vinyl bumper covers, trim pieces, splitters, marker lights; and marks from tire rubs, are not considered damage for the purposes of this section.�

The 50/50 rules states that the damage must be visible from 50 feet, at 50 mph.

The IRB will then collect as much evidence as possible and may make a decision. They also have the right to delay the decision, to gather more evidence.

The IRB will make their decision(s) based on the following CCR recommendations.

“27.11 Issuing Penalties
The IRB may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly
recommended that they follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any
deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be
grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction:

  1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty
  2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty
  3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition
  4. Any contact resulting in “damage� as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race
    suspension
  5. Any contact resulting in a “punt� as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification
  6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race
    suspension
  7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place
    (minimum)
  8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification
    (minimum)
    These are general guidelines for standard penalties. They may be additive or
    multiplicative depending on the situation and the person’s past record. The IRB may
    invoke more severe penalties for repeated violations. Any deviation from these
    guidelines should be justified in the report to the Race Director.�

However, these are recommendations and the IRB has the right to issue additional penalties based on the driver’s past racing conduct, experience level, or any other reason that can be justified to the Race Director.

After the decision is made, the Race Director, has the following rights.

“27.13 Race Director
In general the Race Director will not interfere with the IRB and give will them total empowerment and latitude. However, the Race Director reserves the right to override the decisions of the IRB if the situation warrants, whether the decision was appealed or not.�

Unless I see an obvious error, I plan to support the decisions of the IRB.

At this point, any sanctioned driver may appeal the decision of the IRB. The following steps will then be followed.

“27.14 Appeals
Anyone receiving a penalty may appeal to the Race Director. There are rules regarding this subject listed in the CCR section #17.5.3. The Race Director may elect to sustain the penalties given by the IRB, overrule the IRB completely, or even add penalties to the offending driver. The Race Director will generally, only add penalties upon appeal if the
appeal if found to grossly unwarranted.�

And…

“17.5.3 Appeals - Regional
Any entered driver may appeal any decision made by any Official. The driver must
obtain an “Appeal Form� from Registration, fill it out, and file it, along with the appropriate fee, with the Race Director. The Appeal must be filed within the specified time. The Race Director may accept the RFA (Request for Action) or may extend the time allowed. The Race Director must accept any appeal regarding his/her own decision, however may choose to reject any other appeal. All appeals made involving the decision of the Race Director shall cause the Race Director to carefully reconsider his/her decision.�

Then, the sanctioned driver has two options. He/she can request a panel of three people acceptable to him/her to review the appeal or he/she can request that the Race Director forward the appeal and all other appropriate documents to the NASA Executive Director in California. The Executive Director’s decision is then final.

Regarding the Mid Atlantic 13/13 Autobahn Rules, they are mainly used in cross-class incidents. The 13/13 Autobahn Rules may be used by the Autobahn Series Directors to review cross-class incidents and the Series Directors may issue penalties separate from the CCR procedures. In addition, within Spec E30, 13/13 type penalties may be considered as a part of the CCR penalty procedures.

Also, based on the fact that the CCR procedures and recommendations will be strictly followed for the 2007 racing season in the Mid Atlantic Region, the Chris Cobetto incidents at VIR in February, and my and Matt Olson’s incidents at VIR in March, will be reviewed according to the CCR procedures. And specifically, I will not appeal the findings of the IRB that was formed because of my mistake involving Mike Davidson. Per a recent message from that IRB member Victor Hall, I will return his call shortly to receive their decision.

Everyone should note that this explination is not a substitute for the actual CCR. I recommend everyone read the CCR for all the details.

In the past, I made decisions on penalties because I did not want the few Spec E30 drivers to feel obligated to report an incident against another Spec E30 driver. However, with large fields and very close racing, we now have to follow the CCR very closely, for the benefit of everyone.

Carter Hunt
Spec E30 Series Administrator

#23

Hi Carter,

towards the end of the post, you state

are you saying that sometime in the future you will issue additional statements/rules about applying 13/13 penalties to contact incidences(sic :slight_smile: )?

thanks,
bruce

BTW, Jerry K loves to receive corrections of spelling or grammatical mistakes in the CCR

#24

Great informational post Carter. I hope all drivers take the time to read it, AND take the time to re-read the CCR.

Any driver can end up on the IRB, so it’s important to know the rules regarding contact!
-Vic

#25

Good info. You might want to copy/paste this to a new thread so that people are more likely to read it.

#26

Mike has a good point, but it might also be a good idea to snail mail a copy to the offender. :wink:

#27

victorhall wrote:

[quote]Great informational post Carter. I hope all drivers take the time to read it, AND take the time to re-read the CCR.

Any driver can end up on the IRB, so it’s important to know the rules regarding contact!
-Vic[/quote]

I second that.

IMO, leave the 13/13 stuff to the vintage guys.:whistle: I think this is the right direction for the series. Nice job Carter and Chris.

Jonny A.

#28

jonnyallen wrote:

[quote]victorhall wrote:

[quote]Great informational post Carter. I hope all drivers take the time to read it, AND take the time to re-read the CCR.

Any driver can end up on the IRB, so it’s important to know the rules regarding contact!
-Vic[/quote]

I second that.

IMO, leave the 13/13 stuff to the vintage guys.:whistle: I think this is the right direction for the series. Nice job Carter and Chris.

Jonny A.[/quote]

Strongly disagree. Have some friend/foe, goober, or schmo punt you and your car gets wadded into the wall. Better yet,have someone race you for position as you are LAPPING them and they late brake into the side of your car. You will want a strongly worded provision for the offending party to have to take a break from racing.Perhaps during their time away they consider other sports.

Regards, Robert Patton

#29

Robert and I had an occasion to discuss something unrelated this morning and in the course of that discussion this subject came up. Perhaps I am mistaken but IMO the NASA CCR’s seem to cover the very problems being addressed here. They are long and wordy, but they do address who is at fault and the circumstances regarding enforcement. Specifically, I am referring to section 25.4.2 and figures 1-12. Again, it is my opinion, but reading this and the supporting illustrations, it leaves little doubt as to who would be at fault from a black letter interpretation.

#30

Fault,yes the CCR is clear.The penalty is not clear.My opinion, the penalty needs to be defined.

Regards, Robert

#31

The penalty discribed in 14.5 should accomplish our objective. The key is enforcment. Somebody has to be the bad guy.

#32

Agreed 14.5 accomplishes the objective. But…you’ve got to spell it out or it looks like the independent review board is subjectively "picking"
on the OSB racer. OSB= other sports beckon.

Carter and his group will figure it out for Mid Atlantic. Cullen, Pantas on the SE racers will discuss the merits of 13/13 for the Southeast.

#33

Robert, I guess I don’t understand what the 13/13 rule would do for us that the NASA CCR 14.5 wouldn’t do.

#34

Steve, got kids?
How often have you seen them play the "indepent review board" one against the other?
It is easier and it provides consistantcy when when the consequences of the rules are spelled out.
Neither you nor I want to be on track with someone that warrants a 13/13 penalty.
But,all of this 13/13 gibberish may be a mute point as the specifics of the CCR rules are discussed by the MA group.
Stay tuned for clarifications from those qualified to set policy.
Regards, Robert

#35

Robert and all:

The CCR is the default Rule book for incidents in all NASA classes, (including Spec E30) in all NASA Regions, and the Spec E30 Rules are the default for Rules Compliance in our class.

No Region can go out and "invent" their own Rules on contact or cheating…and here’s why. We want the same rules for incidents and cheating in all regions, and also because any driver can, and should, insist on the CCR procedures. And when he/she does, the local Regional Director (top official in the Region) will have to go along with the CCR. Plus, as we race in other regions, it’s good to know the ground rules before we get there.

I know that many Spec E30 guys in the Southeast came from, and still participate in, BMW CCA race weekends where 13/13 is very strict. But everyone should know that if a Goober hits anyone’s car in a NASA Spec E30 race, it won’t matter if the procedure says "13/13" or not, the Goober will be penalized for sure. And I predict that some will get penalties as strict as 13/13, some may be less strict, and some may be more strict.

I understand how you feel and everyone knows how I feel about crashes and cheating. No one should take our adopting the CCR procedures as "going soft" on crashes. This change has occured for consistency, not to let anyone think that body damage is any more acceptable than before.

Goober is just as likely to get a harsh penality as before. Now, we have strict procedures for enforcing the penalties.

Carter

#36

Carter wrote:

[quote]Robert and all:

The CCR is the default Rule book for incidents in all NASA classes, (including Spec E30) in all NASA Regions, and the Spec E30 Rules are the default for Rules Compliance in our class.

No Region can go out and "invent" their own Rules on contact or cheating.

No one should take our adopting the CCR procedures as "going soft" on crashes. This change has occured for consistency, not to let anyone think that body damage is any more acceptable than before.

Got it.The rules is the rules.

Clarification is good. Consistency is good.Communication is good.I’ll get our director to talk with your director. Regards, Robert

#37

I did not do the "quote" thing correctly in the above post.I’ll try again…

Got it. The rules is the rules.

Clarification is good. Consistancy is good.Communication is good. I’ll have our series director talk to your series director.

Regards, Robert Patton

P.S. someone needs to inform the 944 guys of this research into the fine points of how the rules ultimately play-out.

#38

My two cents. The problem with the 13/13 rule as applied in the BMWCCA is that, at times it is simply too harsh for what everyone would agree are minor incidents. As a result many of the BMW racers refuse to report incidents - even if they think someone is at fault because they know the shoe may be on the other foot at some point in the future. This, of course, tends to undermine the whole system. I would rather have a system that is clearly delineated and provides a mechanism for a range of resonable verdicts/penalties from a group of peers, than a more rigid and harsh system that people are tempted to ignore. I favor the CCR approach. - DH

#39

CCR’s are cool with me.

#40

Dave H - you make a GREAT point about the shortcomings of 13/13.

I’m very glad to see this discussion on the board, and I think that we’re headed in the right direction. With the way that Spec E30 has grown this year I fully agree that we need to follow the CCR.

For fairness, it would be a good idea to review all the Spec E30 incidents from 2007 - there have only been a few to my knowledge.

-Vic