VIR Incident - another perspective

#1

Guys:

As a newcomer to Spec E30 and former 944Cup racer for the past 4 seasons, I have noticed more than a bit of "944 Bashing" on this forum. Generally, people taking shots at the 944 guys whenever there is a comment about contact contact rules, passing, etc. I saw this same attitude from Porsche Club Racing guys towards pretty much any other series but specifically SCCA. I have raced in SCCA, PCA and NASA 944 Cup and now Spec E30 and I don’t think that bashing other series driver’s does anything to promote on-track courtesy and cooperation. I wasn’t at VIR because my kids were on spring break and we went to FL, but I still actively participate in the 944 Cup board.

I don’t know the E30 driver in this video, nor am I "condemming" one of my own, but I think this is a pretty good example of a place where our group could have been a bit more courteous.

The driver in this video was turning 2:14’s and clearly would have been on his way with minimal impact to the E30. While I can appreciate that the E30 was probably trying not to lose touch with the car in front of him, I think that he pinched the 44 pretty hard. Again, I wasn’t there, I wasn’t in either car, but with most everyone having an in-car camera these days, it seems like posting of complaints about the "other class" seem to appear on each board after each race and I think that it’s counter-productive to our goal on on-track cooperation to bash the other series after each race.

#2

There didn’t appear to be contact. The white BMW allowed 3/4 car width, what am I missing?

#3

Steve, looks like a pinch to me.

What everyone is missing is context.

You’ll need to consider the entire weekend.

If that is car 168 you will want to know if 168 was involved in other close racing "activity."

I’ll call it like I see it as Monday Morning Quarterbacking is a specialty of mine.The pinch was a pinch.It postponed the inevitable as the Porsche would pass easily down the back straightaway.Rather than tuck in, the BMW driver now races off-line for two corners and loses further time to the car in front of him.
If others can tell the car number it certainly clear up some things.

Regards, Robert Patton

#4

The E30 was #168. The 944 was #69.

#5

Thank you.

Tuesday morning quarterbacking: The Porsche #69 realizes that two e30s are racing for position. Is #69 racing for position too? He tucks in behind the #168/e30 and rides thru the next two corners until the long back straightaway where he executes the pass…

Was the Porsche’s competitor in his rearview?

We don’t know.

We don’t know the context of #69’s weekend either.

Two sides to every story.

Regards, Robert Patton

#6

Patton wrote:

[quote]
I’ll call it like I see it as Monday Morning Quarterbacking is a specialty of mine.The pinch was a pinch.It postponed the inevitable as the Porsche would pass easily down the back straightaway.Rather than tuck in, the BMW driver now races off-line for two corners and loses further time to the car in front of him.

Regards, Robert Patton[/quote]

This is generally my feeling:
If I am in a E30 and a 944 is coming up on me (or another non-class car that we are sharing the track with), then I assume that they have gained roughly 1/2 lap on me during the race. At mid point (7 laps), this is about 4-5 sec/lap faster than me, more than adequate not to hold me up. If the guy has followed me all the way up the climbing esses and now we hit a braking zone, why pinch him? Brake a tad early and tuck in, much better for both.

Really, the whole point of my post was to show that while I hear people bellyaching about 944’s not yeilding, the exact same is true in the reverse. We both need to be considerate of the other classes that we share the track with and assume that, if cars from another class are passing you that a) they are quite a bit faster and b) they are the class leaders. Simple anticipation, awareness and courtesy will prevent a lot of hard feelings all around.

#7

It seems that if we’re all on the track at the same time, it’s easy to extrapolate too generally following incidents with cars from another series. It’s like stereotyping and racism, but based on car make rather than skin color. So, I agree with Eric that it’s ultimately unproductive.

I got a little mixed up with a 944 at VIR, too, and I feel bad simply because I don’t want to add fodder to any friction between our series. I will briefly recount it for other rookies’ sake (see around the 3:00 mark in the referenced video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeZ40TFg_AA)

Coming out of T10 and going into Oak Tree, I had an orange and a green 944 behind me. They were working me, but weren’t wildly faster. As a rookie, I’m tryinig to learn when to race and when not to race. My first weekend out, I think I was too polite and gave up the line too readily. The last weekend I tried to be a bit more assertive and regard just about any car behind me as a potential car to race (Sports Racers and Turbo 944 excepted).

The orange car got position on me at the kink just before Oak Tree. I let him pass. The green car assumed I was opening the door for both and moved up on me without having postion. I took the line back, and he hit me just behind the rear wheel, pushing me off the track. Neither of us was penalized, and neither of us was judged to be clearly wrong. If I had been more aware of not getting in the middle of their race, I would have ceded the line to the green car, too. But, he didn’t have position to gain the rights to the line so he shouldn’t have assumed I’d let him by.

I reported this incident, so Carter and Dave talked it out. Although the damage to our cars certainly doesn’t qualify as "NASA damage" (50/50), I was glad that I had the incident reviewed so that I could get some feedback and learn from what happened. I encourage others to similarly analyze incidents, no matter how minor, so they too can start to learn good and less good decisions out on the track.

Sasha

#8

Ex36 wrote:

[quote]

The last weekend I tried to be a bit more assertive and regard just about any car behind me as a potential car to race (Sports Racers and Turbo 944 excepted).

…

Sasha[/quote]

Agree with everything that you said with the exception of above. While maybe a single car aprroaching from another class might be someone to race with for a bit (they did catch up from the other side of the track remember), getting into the middle of another class’s race for position and points will definately bring out some criticizm. Unless E30 is mixed in with other classes right at the starting line, I don’t see any reason to "race" anyone overtaking from another group. As stated above, they are quite a bit faster or they wouldn’t have caught up. Trying to jump on their bumper and learn something would be recommended but when two guys are racing for 2nd/3rd and get split, it’s not a happy moment (been there several times).

FWIW - Steve Lewis was in the green car and he had another incident coming up the hill to Oak tree. He caught an E30 at the top of the esses and took the inside (driver’s left) line over the hill. The E30 in front was still significantly in front and drove a straight line up the hill towards Oak Tree. His perspective was that he was "squeezed" off the track, but I know from personal experience that the road bends to the right and if you approach the leading car from the driver’s side, you are screwed (crashed a 911 in this exact same spot the same way on wet grass). I faulted Steve for putting the car at that position on the track just as I ultimately (weeks later :ohmy: ) faulted myself for my incident there. 944 guys didn’t agree.

#9

I don’t understand - he didn’t have position and he punted you off track - how is that not punishable per the CCR?
bruce

Ex36 wrote:

[quote]
The green car assumed I was opening the door for both and moved up on me without having postion. I took the line back, and he hit me just behind the rear wheel, pushing me off the track. Neither of us was penalized, and neither of us was judged to be clearly wrong. If I had been more aware of not getting in the middle of their race, I would have ceded the line to the green car, too. But, he didn’t have position to gain the rights to the line so he shouldn’t have assumed I’d let him by. But, he didn’t have position to gain the rights to the line so he shouldn’t have assumed I’d let him by.

I reported this incident, so Carter and Dave talked it out. Although the damage to our cars certainly doesn’t qualify as "NASA damage" (50/50), I was glad that I had the incident reviewed so that I could get some feedback and learn from what happened.

Sasha[/quote]

#10

erupert66 wrote:

[quote]Ex36 wrote:
FWIW - Steve Lewis was in the green car and he had another incident coming up the hill to Oak tree. He caught an E30 at the top of the esses and took the inside (driver’s left) line over the hill. The E30 in front was still significantly in front and drove a straight line up the hill towards Oak Tree. His perspective was that he was "squeezed" off the track, …I faulted Steve for putting the car at that position on the track. 944 guys didn’t agree.[/quote]

Eric/Sasha:

Sounds like you may be both referring to the same incident with Steve L. Think Sasha posted video of the incident earlier. Here’s the view from the 944: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJC8UMy7dFg.

With the benefits of these videos, I since advised the 944 drivers that per the CCR’s, NASA would have likely ruled Steve/944 at fault because Steve’s front wheel was not up next to the driver, so Sasha could take any line he wanted.

Now Steve presumed Sasha would let him thru behind the other 944 to continue on their battle(for 2nd/3rd). This was based on the Autobahn drivers meeting on Saturday morning when the series Director and Cobetto asked drivers to give way in these type of situations (explained very well again by Rupert in this thread). Turns out Steve got caught out when Sasha came back to track left.

I can see where what we asked of Autobahn drivers and what the CCR’s provide for, are somewhat at odds and that some drivers get caught somewhere in between. Would seem we (Autobahn) need to go one way or the other so drivers know what to expect.

#11

erupert66 wrote:
[/quote]
"getting into the middle of another class’s race for position and points will definately bring out some criticizm"[/quote]

Eric,

Point taken. I guess rather than "race" I should have said play, and I shouldn’t mess up other people’s races. I also don’t want to just be driving around in a circle, so I need to sort out when to have fun and when to move aside.

Sasha

#12

944 Cup wrote:

"Now Steve presumed Sasha would let him thru behind the other 944 to continue on their battle(for 2nd/3rd). This was based on the Autobahn drivers meeting on Saturday morning when the series Director and Cobetto asked drivers to give way in these type of situations (explained very well again by Rupert in this thread)."

David,

I was at the meeting and heard the directions. It was my rookie status and lack of experience (not poor listening or attendance) that led me to be impolite. Maybe by the time I lose the "R" behind my number I will have a better understanding of when to yield and when not to. :blush: This was a good learning experience for me.

Sasha

#13

Sasha:

Thanks for taking my post in the spirit intended, just trying to learn from past incidents, for the benefit of all.

ps. here’s some E30 front runner action from VIR/Sunday. Just for grins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV1n4kZC7O0

#14

944 Cup wrote:

[quote]Sasha:

Thanks for taking my post in the spirit intended, just trying to learn from past incidents, for the benefit of all.

ps. here’s some E30 front runner action from VIR/Sunday. Just for grins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV1n4kZC7O0[/quote]

Ahh so that’s what it looks like at the front of the pack. :woohoo:

#15

MikeD wrote:

[quote]944 Cup wrote:

[quote]Sasha:

Thanks for taking my post in the spirit intended, just trying to learn from past incidents, for the benefit of all.

ps. here’s some E30 front runner action from VIR/Sunday. Just for grins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV1n4kZC7O0[/quote]

Ahh so that’s what it looks like at the front of the pack. :woohoo:[/quote]

Carlton had better change out those rears before the next race:)

#16

Patton wrote:

[quote]Thank you.

Tuesday morning quarterbacking: The Porsche #69 realizes that two e30s are racing for position. Is #69 racing for position too? He tucks in behind the #168/e30 and rides thru the next two corners until the long back straightaway where he executes the pass…

Was the Porsche’s competitor in his rearview?

We don’t know.

We don’t know the context of #69’s weekend either.

Two sides to every story.

Regards, Robert Patton[/quote]

Here’s some context… MY side of the story

-69 was later disqualified for some reason.

-He (69) finished about 9 seconds behind the nearest person in front of him. He finished about 19 second in front of the nearest person behind him. In other words, he wasn’t near any of his competitors.

-I (168) finished 1 second behind you (241)

-I am not going to roll over to a guy in a faster car unless he gets in the proper position to do so (his front wheel next to my door) He never got in this position or even close.

-I think it was red mist that lead him to believe that that was a wise place to pass me. I think it is clear that both of us would have been faster had he chosen to wait until the straight to pass me.

-You bring up the fact that I was involved in other "activity" which sounds like an implication that I was driving with bad manners that weekend. One of those moments of activity was with you (241) which I though we resolved in the pits with Carter afterwards. Why bring it up again? Do you feel we didn’t resolve everything? The other moment was with carter which the two of us (carter and I) came to the conclusion, after viewing the available video, that there was no fault on either side.

#17

Damn, Jens sounds like you had to do a lot of talking over the weekend. Whats that say?:whistle:

#18

DMoses wrote:

Are you asking me or are you trying to imply something?

#19

I have been sitting back and listening about all the carnage. With this many cars things will happen. I also think that maybe some of those with a little less experience should step out of the box and take a look around. The pass that the 944 tried looked OK to me. I have done that before as well with success. By the CCR the E30 may have been in the right but what is wrong with giving some room. I have made many a pass by letting the faster car by and following then around someone else. I don’t feel that the CCR was going through the head of the driver but maybe the DE line was. The new guys need to understand that they will not be up to speed with those who have raced for several years. Do your time and learn while watching others.

Peter Krouse once told me he went around me on the inside of 9 at Roebling because he know it was me and as such, trusted me to know he was there. That comment made me feel very good coming from Peter. The pass was not easy for either of us but we got around just fine. From all that is being talked about it sounds like we may just have to check up and not trust anyone anymore.

Once the experience is gained there is nothing better then going balls to the wall with people like Damion, Robert, Al, and many others and knowing each other and knowing what to expect. I have raced the last two seasons chasing championships and both years my main competitors and I knew each other well enough to know when to open the door and when to slam it. We did this while letting faster cars by and not having any driver error contact.

Just some ramblings from a semi experienced racer and new Spec E30 guy.

Michael O.

#20

Here’s some context… MY side of the story

-69 was later disqualified for some reason.

-He (69) finished about 9 seconds behind the nearest person in front of him. He finished about 19 second in front of the nearest person behind him. In other words, he wasn’t near any of his competitors.

-I (168) finished 1 second behind you (241)

-I am not going to roll over to a guy in a faster car unless he gets in the proper position to do so (his front wheel next to my door) He never got in this position or even close.

-I think it was red mist that lead him to believe that that was a wise place to pass me. I think it is clear that both of us would have been faster had he chosen to wait until the straight to pass me.

Jens, it is clear by watching the video how quickly I gained on you and would have passed you if you hadn’t chopped me off.
Your quote from after the race " I’m not gonna give it to you, if you want it you gotta earn it" The only thing I have to earn is to catch the leader in my group and if I can’t I didn’t earn it.
My fastest lap was 8.5 sec. faster than yours and I passed alot of cars during this race, many of them in the same spot.I didn’t have a problem with any of them, except you. I did notice by following this thread though, that I am not the only one YOU had problems with, even among your own comrads.
Let’s be considerate and courteous towards each other. The price money is not that great.