The MisAdministration of Spec E30

#21

Gasman wrote:

[quote]Carter wrote:

[quote]Vic:

I am truly sorry you feel that way. As the National Series Director, I welcome constructive criticism, feedback, and suggestions. I do my best to incorporate them all into arriving at the decisions that I must make in coordinating and managing this series. I will take your comments into consideration. I wish you the best in you future endeavors.

Carter[/quote]

Carter, if this is true, please tell me what was decided or even discussed about the 100 +/- pound spare tire which could not be defined as ballast used at RR. That race was six weeks ago and still no one knows if it was legal. Some have opinions based on what they think is a grey area, others (myself included) think the rule is very clear and the wheel modification was overlooked in the name of being a good sport. IMO, too many times legitimate questions just seem to be ignored.[/quote]

The Spec E30 Regional Directors will receive my proposal on the new wording, today. Over the last few days, I have been working with NASA National on this issue and while they have approved it, I want to get the Spec E30 Regional Series Directors on-board (considering their opinions and ideas)before it is made official.

Carter

#22

Thanks for letting us know. When do you expect this will be decided?

#23

Although I know there was never a protest filed, at what point does the whole “bad faith protest” rule come in to place? If all the other racers knew Vic had RA1s and had plans to protest, Vic should have been notified BEFORE the race. That really seems like the rub to me. From Vic’s standpoint (I know there are two sides) everything was cool and then he was thrown under the bus. I’m not saying the tires were legal, but we’ve heard it numerous times that these types of parts changes are a little “lax” until everyone has a chance to get up to the correct spec.

Admittedly, I’m a little biased. I ran Barber on RA1s (as did over half the field evidently) and went just hoping it wouldn’t be a problem. In my case, I’m running basketweaves and the 14" R888 wasn’t available until recently.

I don’t think the DQ is what’s in question here, it’s just the way that it was handled.

#24

IndyJim wrote:

[quote]Or the long awaited statistical analysis of HP/TRQ, or if anything is being done about the numerous quality issues with the spec exhaust, or small vs. large bumpers, or the dual fuel pump question.

That’s just off the top of my head.[/quote]

Jim:

We were hoping to have a dyno at the Mid Atlantic Region races this year, to test the program, but last weekend was the first time we have had a dyno. We were allowed two cars on the dyno and I got copies of their results, to apply to the program.

And the paper-thin Spec E30 budget does not allow me to travel to other areas of the country for this HP/TRQ program.

So don’t think I’ve been sitting on my hands…we just haven’t had the equipment to test the program. And I don’t want to add it to the Rules without plenty of testing.

Do you have a dyno at the Southeast events? I’m thinking that the only option is to release the program (just for testing) to all Regional Series Directors for testing whenever there is a dyno at a NASA event.

And again, no one had any issues at Summit Point with their exhaust. It was a non-issue. Do I need to attend a Southeast event to see the “numerous quality issues?”

While I haven’t spent a lot of time on the board lately, which will change, I will search for any bumper questions and will respond.

Regarding fuel pumps, we want the drivers to do what they need to do with this to make their cars reliable.

Regarding fuel cell sizes, I’ve done some research with fuel cell companies but need to contact NASA to get their thoughts on how fuel cell sizes affect the Spec E30 Rules, and the Enduro Rules, which are completely separate.

Carter

#25

Gasman wrote:

http://spece30.com/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,86/func,view/id,24774/catid,16/limit,10/limitstart,50/#25386

Carter wrote:

and some of your replies…

Gasman wrote:

Gasman wrote:

[quote]As far as I’m concerned the rules on this subject are empathically clear. This isn’t a debate about a grey area. Unless the weight is added to the passenger area ahead of the passenger seat, it is not legal…period. If you want to make it legal…fine, I have no problem with it. But you cannot say this is legal by saying it isn’t totally illegal. That is bullshit.

Mark you calander, today is the day we invited rule creep into spec e30.[/quote]

#26

Gasman wrote:

As soon as we can get through it. A few days?

Carter

#27

shifter11 wrote:

[quote]Although I know there was never a protest filed, at what point does the whole “bad faith protest” rule come in to place? If all the other racers knew Vic had RA1s and had plans to protest, Vic should have been notified BEFORE the race. That really seems like the rub to me. From Vic’s standpoint (I know there are two sides) everything was cool and then he was thrown under the bus. I’m not saying the tires were legal, but we’ve heard it numerous times that these types of parts changes are a little “lax” until everyone has a chance to get up to the correct spec.

Admittedly, I’m a little biased. I ran Barber on RA1s (as did over half the field evidently) and went just hoping it wouldn’t be a problem. In my case, I’m running basketweaves and the 14" R888 wasn’t available until recently.

I don’t think the DQ is what’s in question here, it’s just the way that it was handled.[/quote]

Good questions.

A “bad faith protest” is decided by your local NASA Officials at the time of the protest. Again, NASA manages these procedures.

And while DQ procedure at Summit might have been a bit of a suprise, it was correct and consistent the NASA National program, according to the on-site NASA National official.

Carter

#28

Carter -

Thanks for the reply. It is good to have some responses to these things even if the answer is I don’t have all the answers.

These issues have been out there for awhile and it is good to know the reason(s) for the delays. For me a simple acknowledgement of a rules issue as in “Hey I got it” to know that it is in process, and any timelines / periodic updates for resolution would go a long way (I think with everyone). Recently it has seemed like a one sided conversation. Understood that you can’t monitor this board 24x7, so the other region guys could be a stand-in if they’re now the rules council.

Specifically to the exhausts, I know of at least 4 people down here (may be more) that have had to make some type of adjustment to their’s in order to pull in their driveway, garage, and/or trailer. Specifically - me, M3Bill, Pantas, and Chuck? I think that is right but I’m open to correction. That is 4 (that I know about) out of probably 15-20 active racers. Not a 90% failure rate, but on a sensitive topic not exactly a perfect quality record.

To conflicts of interest, I still think they’re there. I also don’t think it can be easily solved. I understand the process, and the NASA stuff. My concern is we’re dealing with people and relationships. The same reason people are reluctant to protest other racers, is probably the same reason that a NASA region employee might not see things the same for a NASA official that they would for an average joe. And knowing (or thinking this) may lead to a protest against said official never being filed. At the end of the day the answer may be we’re only human and this is just a hobby.

Anyway good to know you’re involved and working on these things.

#29

dmwhite wrote:

[quote]Gasman wrote:

http://spece30.com/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,86/func,view/id,24774/catid,16/limit,10/limitstart,50/#25386

Carter wrote:

and some of your replies…

Gasman wrote:

Gasman wrote:

[quote]As far as I’m concerned the rules on this subject are empathically clear. This isn’t a debate about a grey area. Unless the weight is added to the passenger area ahead of the passenger seat, it is not legal…period. If you want to make it legal…fine, I have no problem with it. But you cannot say this is legal by saying it isn’t totally illegal. That is bullshit.

Mark you calander, today is the day we invited rule creep into spec e30.[/quote][/quote]

After re-reading this, I want to make something clear, that may not have been clear.

When I wrote “And honestly, he can be protested but I can tell you now that he won’t be found to be illegal.” this was just my opinion on how I thought the NASA Officials would rule in a protest that might have been filed that weekend.

I was not in any way, trying to make a ruling myself. That’s NASA’s job, not mine.

Carter

#30

shifter11 wrote:

Glad to hear these are now legal! That just saved us even more money!

#31

IndyJim wrote:

[quote]Carter -

To conflicts of interest, I still think they’re there. I also don’t think it can be easily solved. I understand the process, and the NASA stuff. My concern is we’re dealing with people and relationships. The same reason people are reluctant to protest other racers, is probably the same reason that a NASA region employee might not see things the same for a NASA official that they would for an average joe. And knowing (or thinking this) may lead to a protest against said official never being filed. At the end of the day the answer may be we’re only human and this is just a hobby.

Anyway good to know you’re involved and working on these things.[/quote]

There’s no question that when NASA and Spec E30 Officials race in the Series, we will have to deal with “issues,” but it can be done fairly and evenly. Chris Cobetto, the NASA Mid Atlantic Region Director, and a Spec E30 front runner, said that he will probably never protest anyone. And I should probably embrace the same philosophy.

Regarding an official being protested, my driving was protested last weekend at Summit, after the Sunday race. I braked too late at turn one and my left front fender hit Mike Trent’s passenger door. The contact did not push him off the track, did not “cave-in” his door (but did ding it pretty well) or prevent either of us from continuing to race. However, I gained a position.

During the race, the full course yellow allowed me to catch back up to the leaders but when the race resumed, I pulled into the pits, just because I felt like a jerk for causing the contact.

In the tower post-race, I was found, by the NASA Official, to have been at fault, and I was DQ’d and given three driver contact points. Fair enough. I was guilty and got punished. The NASA process worked, and it worked with an official (me) involved.

And yes, as Jim Pantas, Chris Cobetto, the other Spec E30 Regional Series Directors, and I race, we will have to deal with it again. Communicating openly is one way to help make it as smooth as possible.

I appreciate your thoughts on this subject.

Carter

ps. I have to get to work now but I will get back on the board tonight.

#32

David, Thanks for the reminder…seriously. That entire issue made me so angry that I guess I tried to repress it and put it behind me…what else could I do? If that wasn’t the cause, I guess it must be oldtimers setting in. At any rate, thanks for setting the record straight.

Carter, thank you for clarifying the issue wasn’t yours to decide. Many people confronted me on that issue and took comfort in reminding me that I was wrong based on your comment. Perhaps you don’t realize just how much power you are deemed to have in this series.

Jimmy, Spot on.

#33

Bah; wrote a longer reply and the internets ate it, so this is the short version.

Nearly every series I’ve covered or raced with has a minimum rule for compliance; no illegal car can finish ahead of a legal car. I’m not on the sharp end of the field, but I do like to know that I’m slower than the fast guys because they’re simply faster than I am, not because of some mechanical variable. The Nonnamakers have a great bit in their August 2008 GRM Driving Diary (subtle plug, no?) about how winning can sour the joy of simply racing.

As for the spare, the intention there was actually to bring the car into compliance with the minimum weight rule while having a bit of fun with an obvious (to us, anyway) loophole in the wording of the rules. Glad to hear a rule change is coming to clarify, that was our intention or we wouldn’t have posted it online.

For the record, it turns out that since we can’t run less than 10 gallons of fuel without starving on right handers, the wheel was a 40 pound detriment. I ran Sunday at Summit with a regular spare and was 31 pounds over minimum with a full tank of gas.

None of that mattered when the Porsche punted me in Three; so much for the killer start and the five-position leap by turn one. That’s racing; had a blast, can’t wait for the next one.

#34

You guys also did a great article on Pros vs. Joes that told me it was the indian not the arrow.

I personally subscribe to the Dave White approach of, don’t worry about why the guy in front of you is faster, worry about why you’re slower.

My personal opinion, if Vic went around and announced his RA1’s and no one said - Hey you cheap a$$ buy some R888’s I had to. He would have known where he stood, or at least could have run for fun and known the score up front.

Without being there it is hard to say what happened, while technically illegal I doubt that the RA1’s alone were the reason he finished 1st. It probably has more to do with his several hundred summit laps and his self proclaimed Mayor of Summit Point title (or something like that).

Another alternative would have been for said individuals who may not have heard or known about the RA1’s to say - Good race today, if you don’t find some R888’s tomorrow you’re SOL.

The ‘fun’ entries I’ve seen have been listed as such and while they qualfied with the race group their finishing position was distinct.

#35

I was paddocked with our King Rat friends a bit away form Spec E30 central, and I didn’t actually know about the tire thing until the next morning. Would I have chimed in and said he should be deemed illegal to his face? No. I’m not generally one to get in people’s faces, and it’s not like we were even on the same second lap-time wise. However, I did tell Carter after I found out about it that I was completely in support of the adherence to the rules. The rules don’t have feelings, and they don’t care who wins. If the adherence is there, we can all be friendly with each other and bitch about the rules.

#36

GRMScott wrote:

Seeing as how I’m new to E30s in general, that’s news to me.

#37

Imagine my surprise during the 40-minute IFU-2 race! It’s only some cars, though ours has a brand-new gas tank and fuel pump. Dual pumps are on the menu before Championships.

JeepinMatt wrote:

[quote]GRMScott wrote:

Seeing as how I’m new to E30s in general, that’s news to me.[/quote]

#38

GRMScott wrote:

[quote]Dual pumps are on the menu before Championships.
[/quote]

Perhaps we can get rule clarification on that after you make this modification too.

#39

Somebody’s got to go first!

But let’s save that for another thread :cheer:

#40

Gasman wrote:

[quote]GRMScott wrote:

[quote]Dual pumps are on the menu before Championships.
[/quote]

Perhaps we can get rule clarification on that after you make this modification too.[/quote]

seems like carter already touched on that subject…

Carter wrote: