The MisAdministration of Spec E30


#1

This is just a hobby. This is not life, death, career, nor family. It is just a hobby, but it plays a damn important role in keeping me a happy person. We put a lot of time, effort, and money into this hobby, because it makes us happy. Carter Hunt dropped a big load on my hobby, and I am not a happy camper. I was there for the very first Spec E30 race, but I do no see myself racing again in Spec E30 Mid-Atlantic as long as he is the series Administrator.

I see two distinct issues with one common thread: Inconsistent rules changes, and inconsistent rules enforcement, both by Carter. Carter’s rules changes this past year and his ad-hoc application of the rules have resulted in me taking the short end of the stick one too many times. I do not think his efforts have been malicious, but he certainly has benefited very nicely from his decisions. Carter, I question your ability to separate the competitor from the administrator. You are always very quick to point the finger out, and I wonder how much internal critique you are capable of.

I believe that Carter has failed miserably in his duty to promote the series and be a champion. It is no coincidence that participation has dropped from last year. The fields at CMP and Hyperfest were almost half of what they were last year.

I drove my racecar to the track on Saturday with low expectations on finishing position, and high expectations for fun. With an untested car, and rusty driver, I did not expect to do all that well. I surprised myself by qualifying 4th, and started to believe that I could finish on the podium. I had a fantastic start, and was in P1 by Turn 5. Carter later shared his opinion that Jonny and I jumped the start. I’ll get video up and let you judge. He is way off base. FWIW, I never saw Carter during the race. It must have been the tires. Some 944’s got in trouble and caused a red-flag, which was followed by a restart. I got a kick-@ss jump, managed traffic well, and drove cleanly and defensively for the win. I benefited from Jonny and Skip battling behind me. It looked like they were having fun, but I was glad to watch it from my rear view mirror. I was not the fastest Spec E30 on track, but took home the win. Needless to say, I was pumped.

Following the race, I was fully aware that I might be protested. I was open with all the other drivers that I was running RA-1’s, and I even joked with my paddock-mates about being protested on slower tires, and the slower exhaust. I figured that Jonny and Skip would not raise a stink – after all, I had dropped a protest against Skip last year for illegal ram-air parts, and Jonny was the man that dinked me last year to snuff out my Hyperfest win (and the entire car by the way). But if someone did protest, I would understand. There would be no protest.

I was not caught completely off-guard when I saw Carter and Jim rolling over to inspect my car. When I asked Carter which driver protested, I was baffled to hear him say that there had not been a protest. Carter’s post fills in some blanks here. Jon Lindsey, who was acting for Cobetto apparently pointed out that Carter and NASA can make a “compliance call.” I learned from Chris later, that NASA Mid-Atlantic has NEVER made this kind of call before. So without formal protest from any driver, I was disqualified for non-compliance to the rules. Let’s be clear here. Carter, you are responsible for my DQ. Do not try to pawn it off on a NASA national call or decision. This was your doing.

Let’s look back at some past compliance issues. Everyone knew about Cobetto’s cut strut towers – Carter did nothing. I protested Jens and Skip’s cars last year at VIR for running ram-air – Carter did nothing (I subsequently dropped that protest – it was not worth the hassle, and they genuinely earned their finishing positions). Cobetto and I talked on Sunday, and he admitted that you could take just about ANY car in the paddock and find non-compliances. For the sake of arguing it, we talked briefly about “performance advantage.” Chris was the first person that I’ve heard say that the RA-1’s could be faster, but he said that the R888’s just go off quicker. This was a shortened race, and I doubt anyone’s tires had a chance to get greasy. I had no performance advantage. So why enforce this compliance issue, now?

I have tried to avoid the discussion on going to R888’s, but it is one piece that certainly gets away from the Spec E30 philosophy. I never understood Carter’s June 1 changeover date – wasn’t the idea of the series to keep it affordable? You’re looking at a $1200 investment for 1 dry set and 1 rain set of R888’s. And with my roller-coaster ride in Spec E30 these past couple years, I just didn’t have the funds for that kind of rubber – especially when I’ve got racks of RA-1’s (which are all old and heat-cycled to sh1t btw).

Let me be clear. I understand the rules (although I may not agree with them) and I understand the process. Yes, my car was “illegal.” I told every driver around me that I was running RA-1’s, and did not think anything of it until Carter made it an issue.

This was not the first time that Carter’s call shafted me. And while Carter is quick to call me a whiner who is playing the victim, it does not change the fact that he has dropped the ball in the Mid-Atlantic. The numbers are dropping, and with good reason. The lack of sound technical reasoning behind the rules changes are reason enough to worry. What will the next changes be? Will you close up the loopholes on ride height, diffs, gas tanks, fuel pressure regulators, airbox, weight distribution (and big bumpers over little bumpers), aero advantages, and all the other technical pieces which you have dropped the ball on? Or, like the exhaust, will the changes ignore the facts and move along the path that one man believes to be true? Well, I no longer care. I’ve been driven out of the Spec Carter kingdom. I did not race on Sunday (despite many offers from my fellow drivers to borrow R888’s), and I will not race with Carter again.

So yes Carter, congratulations on being the first in the Mid-Atlantic region to enforce this rule. Congratulations on enforcing absolute strict compliance this one time. Congratulations on robbing me of my victory, and congratulations on driving me away from this region. Good luck with your dwindling field. Keep driving racers away, and you you’re guaranteed to end up in first place.

-Vic


#2

Sorry to hear that won’t be racing with the mid atlantic guys but we would love to have you in the southeast.

A couple of points. I am all for rules enforcement whether it be through the series admn. or NASA.

Second, we ran into this exact situtation at Barber last month. Skeen ran on RA1 which was not leagal at the time and I ran the R888. NASA Se director Jim Panatas asked me if I was okay with it knowing that Skeen and usually run together. I didn’t have a problem with even though I consider the RA1 to be a superior tire. I only let it slide because it was so close to the deadline. Not again though especially considering he beat me again:angry:

If it went down like you said I think it was not played fairly. If this is the first time the NASA people have enforced a DQ on their accord and not another racers protest it sounds a little fishy. Did someone place a bug in the ear of the NASA officials, hmm.

Regardless, rules enforcement is a-ok with me, no matter how it gets done.


#3

the hard switchover date to R888’s was forced by Brian Cohn at NASA (who is no longer with NASA), and he didn’t have a good explanation when asked directly about it (e.g. why not allow a phase in period). I suspect it was something done to make NASA look good to Toyo who does provide a lot of sponsorship money, so that consideration is not without merit.

Several regions have explicitly stated that they will not enforce the R888 switchover from RA1s this year (SE being one, RM being another), so it is up to you to clarify what the local variation might be. Obviously, it is not good to have regional variations, but this particular rule flies in the face of a budget racing philosophy for no noticeable (to racers) gain.

There could be lots of reasons for a drop in numbers in the MA region.

I think some of these issues could have been aired and addressed through other already established means.
bruce


#4

Damion, many of the back-of-pack racers at Barber (me and Laura for certain) still had the RA1s. Tough to use up the rubber with our lack of speed and rain races that we’ve had this year. Like Skeen we told everyone, and the NASA SE common sense (cents) rule was applied as I didn’t hear a complaint. My rubber is good for one more event, Laura’s may require replacement sooner.and

I understand both sides of TireGate 2008. It’s tough out there.

Regards, Robert Patton


#5

you said it yourself, you were illegal. You WOULD have been protested if you were not DQ’d. Dont have any confusion about that. What about the rest of us who spent our money to be on the correct tires? Why should you get a pass when everyone else did what they had to do to be legal? No one is happy about the tire deal but it was pretty clear to me that we had to be on R-888. Its easy to critize someone elses decisions, being the series director is not an easy job, pretty much a thankless task. Since this isnt life or death and just a hobby shouldnt our leadership get some appreciation and respect?

Drive-gear.com spec e30 rentals


#6

DMoses wrote:

Not exactly. The NASA-SE official tire supplier did not come with the shaved R888 tires that I ordered BEFORE the event. Jim made the call to let me run on RA-1s BEFORE any racing.


#7

I think Vic raises an interesting point concerning the conflicts of interest here.

Obviously Carter is a competitor, we have region NASA officials/representatives racing as well. How is this typically handled in other series? Is there even any precedent for this in other organizations?

I’ll certainly attest to the fact that Pantas is legal (or the worst cheater ever in the history of man, in fact if he is cheating I don’t care).

I think Vic did the common sense thing and came clean about where he was with the tires, if anyone had an issue speak now… That has seemed to work out well down south, I guess time will tell if that continues.

Either way the time of the dictator may be passed. I for one would like to see more transparency in the rules and the decisions that are made. I’m sure I won’t always agree with every rule, but I tend to accept things better if I understand at least the rationale behind it.

Bruce is your car finished yet?:laugh:


#8

mskeen wrote:

[quote]DMoses wrote:

Not exactly. The NASA-SE official tire supplier did not come with the shaved R888 tires that I ordered BEFORE the event. Jim made the call to let me run on RA-1s BEFORE any racing.[/quote]

I realize you ordered the correct tires but got the wrong ones. Doesn’t change the fact that they were the wrong tires. Jim made the call after he asked me if I had a problem with it.


#9

andrew240z wrote:

[quote]you said it yourself, you were illegal. You WOULD have been protested if you were not DQ’d. Dont have any confusion about that. What about the rest of us who spent our money to be on the correct tires? Why should you get a pass when everyone else did what they had to do to be legal? No one is happy about the tire deal but it was pretty clear to me that we had to be on R-888. Its easy to critize someone elses decisions, being the series director is not an easy job, pretty much a thankless task. Since this isnt life or death and just a hobby shouldnt our leadership get some appreciation and respect?

Drive-gear.com spec e30 rentals[/quote]

I read it as he didn’t have a problem with being called out for having illegal equipment, just that the rules on equipment violations should be consistently enforced and apply to everyone.


#10

leggwork wrote:

[quote]Several regions have explicitly stated that they will not enforce the R888 switchover from RA1s this year (SE being one, RM being another)
bruce[/quote]
SE said that? When? I think in some respects SE may be a bit more “laid back” (my term), or “lax” (perhaps others) in some aspects of rules compliance, but I’m not aware of a declaration regarding the 888 implementation.

Situations that create an economic hardship (throwing away tires with remaining life, paying muffler Mike $200 to re-engineer the poor-fitting spec exhaust so it doesn’t get left on the ground) and so on, rub me (and others) the wrong way. So far this season, the SE competitors have pretty much agreed to be somewhat cool on these, while recognizing that competing in another region or at Nationals means you’ve got to have these things addressed.

Could better pre-race communication between Vic and the other racers have prevented Vic’s problem at Summit? Was he warned not to run, or to reclass to -fun status?


#11

Vic:

I am truly sorry you feel that way. As the National Series Director, I welcome constructive criticism, feedback, and suggestions. I do my best to incorporate them all into arriving at the decisions that I must make in coordinating and managing the rules of this series. I will take your comments into consideration. I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Carter


#12

.


#13

I probably stated that too strongly - it is a sense that I have from several comments made over the last few months.
thanks,
bruce

ctbimmer wrote:

[quote]leggwork wrote:

[quote]Several regions have explicitly stated that they will not enforce the R888 switchover from RA1s this year (SE being one, RM being another)
bruce[/quote]
SE said that? When? I think in some respects SE may be a bit more “laid back” (my term), or “lax” (perhaps others) in some aspects of rules compliance, but I’m not aware of a declaration regarding the 888 implementation.

[/quote]


#14

Finally got my video up. It’s the entire race, unedited, including a long red-flag stop in the middle:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1301043629324073510&hl=en

-Vic


#15

Carter wrote:

[quote]Vic:

I am truly sorry you feel that way. As the National Series Director, I welcome constructive criticism, feedback, and suggestions. I do my best to incorporate them all into arriving at the decisions that I must make in coordinating and managing this series. I will take your comments into consideration. I wish you the best in you future endeavors.

Carter[/quote]

Carter, if this is true, please tell me what was decided or even discussed about the 100 +/- pound spare tire which could not be defined as ballast used at RR. That race was six weeks ago and still no one knows if it was legal. Some have opinions based on what they think is a grey area, others (myself included) think the rule is very clear and the wheel modification was overlooked in the name of being a good sport. IMO, too many times legitimate questions just seem to be ignored.


#16

Or the long awaited statistical analysis of HP/TRQ, or if anything is being done about the numerous quality issues with the spec exhaust, or small vs. large bumpers, or the dual fuel pump question.

That’s just off the top of my head.


#17

Gasman wrote:

[quote]Carter wrote:

[quote]Vic:

I am truly sorry you feel that way. As the National Series Director, I welcome constructive criticism, feedback, and suggestions. I do my best to incorporate them all into arriving at the decisions that I must make in coordinating and managing this series. I will take your comments into consideration. I wish you the best in you future endeavors.

Carter[/quote]

Carter, if this is true, please tell me what was decided or even discussed about the 100 +/- pound spare tire which could not be defined as ballast used at RR. That race was six weeks ago and still no one knows if it was legal. Some have opinions based on what they think is a grey area, others (myself included) think the rule is very clear and the wheel modification was overlooked in the name of being a good sport. IMO, too many times legitimate questions just seem to be ignored.[/quote]

Steve, If I recall correctly… Carter said of the GRM spare
[size=4]“while it is not within the spirit of the rules… it is legal” [/size]


#18

Scott, I followed that thread pretty close and don’t recall seeing that, can you direct me to where he actually said that? Or better yet, Carter is that what you said?

One mississippi. :dry:


#19

Wow, Vic. You sound pretty bitter. But you should have brought this issue up at the driver’s meeting and gotten buy-in from everyone in the class to let you run for points on non-spec tires.

I know I don’t have a dog in this fight but I am considering Spec E30 as the next series for me.


#20

IndyJim wrote:

[quote]I think Vic raises an interesting point concerning the conflicts of interest here.

Obviously Carter is a competitor, we have region NASA officials/representatives racing as well. How is this typically handled in other series? Is there even any precedent for this in other organizations?

I’ll certainly attest to the fact that Pantas is legal (or the worst cheater ever in the history of man, in fact if he is cheating I don’t care).

I think Vic did the common sense thing and came clean about where he was with the tires, if anyone had an issue speak now… That has seemed to work out well down south, I guess time will tell if that continues.

Either way the time of the dictator may be passed. I for one would like to see more transparency in the rules and the decisions that are made. I’m sure I won’t always agree with every rule, but I tend to accept things better if I understand at least the rationale behind it.

Bruce is your car finished yet?:laugh:[/quote]

Jim and all:

To respectfully reply to your points…

No doubt, I am a driver, and at Summit Point I was acting as either a driver, or the Spec E30 Regional Series Director, and definitely not as some heavy-handed dictator. Other drivers were going to protest Vic if I (as a driver) did not; no question about it. The Mid Atlantic Region is very competitive, thus the strict application of the Rules by the drivers. As stated before, NASA said that a protest was not necessary, and I accompanied the NASA Compliance Director for no other reason than to simply verify the illegal tires on Vic’s car, acting as the Spec E30 Regional Series Director for the Mid Atlantic Region. I was there to simply say that the tires on his car were legal, or illegal.

Last year, we embraced the NASA Compliance Rules. Earlier in Spec E30’s life and when we were much smaller, I made compliance decisions myself…but this hasn’t been the case since last year.

I was told very early last year that NASA’s Compliance procedures must be followed, which I accepted (and prefer) fully. From Vic’s words, I take it that he feels slighted, regarding the incident that resulted in his big crash last year. I distinctly remember telling all the involved parties, when they came to me, that they needed to go through the NASA body contact procedures and that I have nothing to do with that (“that” being deciding fault, issuing penalties, etc.) now. Simply put, we used the NASA procedures, not some “Carter Hunt Rule.”

And If any other driver on the Summit Point podium last weekend had raced on RA-1’s, the exact same NASA procedures would have been used.

So there’s no confusion here…

I manage the Spec E30 Rules, thankfully with the help of the Spec E30 Regional Series Directors, and which must be approved by NASA National. All local NASA Regions have procedures, from NASA National, to apply the Rules.

It’s really that simple. I’d say that’s far from a dictatorial program.

Regarding the “speaking up” of others, if a driver has an illegal part (I’m now speaking as a driver), I think the obligation is on the driver with the illegal part, not all the others. I know that Vic did speak up at Summit, but he casually spoke up to some of the drivers, not to all of the drivers, and definitely not to the NASA officials who make the decisions in these situations. Is it not reasonable for the driver to first alert the NASA Officials very early in the weekend, and then his fellow drivers at the Spec e30 meeting early Saturday morning? I think this will work just fine, and would have worked at Summit.

Also, the time of the Spec E30 Rules Enforcer Dictator definitely passed last year. Per last year’s events, and beyond, Rules Compliance issues are handled by NASA in each region.

Plus, the Spec E30 Regional Series Directors will soon be receiving my proposal (which was just yesterday approved by NASA National) on the spare tire rule wording change. After we all discuss it, and they are satisfied, the wording change will be added to the Spec E30 Rules.

Does this address your concerns?

Carter Hunt
National Series Director