Summit Point


#1

All:

An interesting situation occured this past weekend; one that taught me something, and I want to share it with the group so no one is surprised if/when it happens at a future event. And after thinking about it, it does make sense.

One car (the first place finisher) at Summit Point did not have Toyo R888 tires on his car for Saturday’s qualifying and race. To his credit, the driver never tried to hide this from other Spec E30 drivers.

I was not in the Spec E30 paddock area, due to a late arrival Friday night, and discovered the wrong tires on the car on the race grid.

Post race, the second, third, and forth (me) place finishers planned to protest the first place finishing car. Acting as a driver in this situation, I had the protest form in my hand (I told the other guys I would do it) but was told by Jon Lindsey, the visiting NASA National Official (and who had been appointed by the Mid Atlantic Regional Director, to be the acting Race Director), that a protest was not necessary. Jon told us that Tech can spot a rules infraction on a car and can report it to Race Control, who will then disqualify that driver.

In the Mid Atlantic, we have had a few cars, over the history of Spec E30, not make the minimum weight after a race. This being a straight-forward rules infraction, Tech has reported this to Control, and those drivers were disqualified without a formal protest.

While we have never used this procedure for anything other than a post-race weight infraction, it is procedurally correct to use it for obvious infractions like failing to meet the minimum weight, not having the spec tires, etc.

After the Saturday race, I was told, as the Spec E30 Mid Atlantic Regional Director, to accompany the NASA Mid Atlantic Compliance Director to confirm that the first place finishing car had not used the spec tire during the race. Again, the driver did not try to hide this fact, and he was disqualified.

So, while Tech is used in various ways in different regions, this is a legitimate role for Tech and this specific situation was handled correctly.

Also, it was later explained to me that this option is available for several reasons.

  1. It is quick and easy.
  2. The result is exactly the same as a formal protest.
  3. Tech can spot clear and obvious rules infractions.
  4. Per NASA National, it takes the “heat” off the other drivers. No one has been upset at another driver when he did not prepare his car properly to make minimum weight, and no one should be upset at another driver for not having prepared properly by having the spec tires.

Also, while one driver told me that this kind of rules enforcement will “drive away racers,” we will definitely enforce rules as obvious as this. Plus, technically speaking, the offending driver shouldn’t have been given a qualifying time, according to NASA that day, and he should have started at the back of the pack.

I also want to mention that while a driver or two may feel that rules enforcement is not important, several Spec E30 drivers told me that day that they spent the money and bought the correct tires, and that they were glad to see the spec tire rule enforced, one of our core rules. Plus, as we have seen in other regions this year, other drivers were DQ’d for having improper equipment, specifically core spec parts. And I applaud those regions for their commitment to sticking to the spec philosophy, specifically on core spec parts.

And if enforcing core spec parts is going to drive away racers (I personally think this consistancy will bring more racers), we would rather lose one or two, than to start “letting things slide” to get an additional racer or two.

Plus, NASA offers an option in these situations. If a driver does not have the correct core spec parts, he can always explain this to the NASA officials pre-race, he can race “for fun,” and not get Spec E30 points. We’ve done this in the past and it worked great.

Carter Hunt
Spec E30 National Series Director


#2

Bravo!

So what were the results?


#3

[edit] Waiting to hear both sides…

JP


#4

I agree as well…I guess I had better order a spec exhaust before my next event :unsure:

Don


#5

or drive to the track …
bruce

donstevens wrote:

[quote]I agree as well…I guess I had better order a spec exhaust before my next event :unsure:

Don[/quote]


#6

Bravo indeed! Rule enforcement in the tech shed would have eliminated several problems we have had here in the Southeast; I hope to see more of this at every event. IMO, I see rule enforcement promoting more drivers wanting to participate in the series than those wanting to leave it.

Also glad to see clarification that racing for “for fun” is just that, for fun and should not be given a qualifying time or grid spot which denies someone else the opportunity to have that spot with a legal car.


#7

Interesting spin on the events. Carter, you are ever the salesman and the competitor.

I will write up my version of my Saturday victory (and get you some good video), hopefully some time tonight. I will do my best to include ALL the facts.

Had I started from the back of the pack, I still would have handed you your @ss in my slower car.

-Vic “Hyperfest” Hall


#8

victorhall wrote:

[quote]Interesting spin on the events. Carter, you are ever the salesman and the competitor.

I will write up my version of my Saturday victory (and get you some good video), hopefully some time tonight. I will do my best to include ALL the facts.

Had I started from the back of the pack, I still would have handed you your @ss in my slower car.

-Vic “Hyperfest” Hall[/quote]

Now that is some smack talk! yeah baby!:woohoo:


#9

I was not at Summit Point and have not talked to anyone about the circumstances outlined in Carter’s post. However, I would like to make a couple of points based on some experience with professional racing series rules about tech, illegal parts, DQ etc. (In this case I think it is helpful to refer to other series because the NASA rules are silent or ambiguous on some of the procedural issues here.)

  1. In most pro series, post-qualifying and post-race impound or “parc ferme” is closed to all but a designated representative from each team and, even then, they are generally not allowed to scrutinize other teams cars. (There is a confidentiality statement in the NASA CCR but is has more to do with protecting legal modifications) One of the reasons for this is to prevent teams from trying to affect the outcome after the fact. I have heard of scrutineers who were alerted to an infraction by another team, but since it was not in an area that they intended to check they took no action - which is generally their perrogative - even though the infraction was easily detectable with simple inspection.

  2. If a competitor chooses to protest a vehicle after an event, in general the offender is notified and penalties are imposed on the next event, only if the infraction is not corrected. In other words, if you know or suspect an infraction, the burden is on you to notify an offical before an event, not after words (this is in the NASA CCR). If you don’t protest before, and it is not caught at impound through an impartial process - tough. Make them change it for the next race.

  3. In a club series like ours, where the emphasis is on fun, if a competitor knows that they are technically illegal, in my opinion they should simply acknowledge the infraction and run for fun (no points, Toyo bucks, etc). This is sort of taking a page out of the pro golf handbook. I personally would not even object to them starting where they qualified - but some would disagree since a non-legal “fun” competitor that qualifies at the front could affect the outcome among the legal competitors. (Note: In theory a competitor running for fun could affect the outcome no matter where they start).

  4. Finally, I agree with the importance of adhering to the rules. The slippery slope is a dangerous precedent for a racing series. On the other hand the rules provide the Race Director wide latitude (read “use common sense”) in part in recognition that no rules set is perfect and in part because the main objective here is for all of us to have fun.


#10

Can someone at least give us results?


#11

mskeen wrote:

+1


#12

I don’t know who won… but it looks like Johnny washed at least part of his car.

too bad he doesn’t come to the board anymore :frowning:


#13

[edit]
Sat top 5 results:

  1. Vic (DQ) (Qual’d 4)
  2. Skip (Qual’d 1)
  3. Jonny (Qual’d 5)
  4. Carter (Qual’d 3)
  5. Robert Allen (Qual’d 2)
  6. Mike T (Qual’d 7)

and Robert Allen Qual’d 2nd - nice work kid!!

I did not run or stick around on Sunday in my own form of protest. I’m still “tweaking” my writeup - amazing how work gets in the way.

-Vic


#14

victorhall wrote:

[quote]Sat top 5 results:

  1. Vic (DQ) (Qual’d 4)
  2. Skip (Qual’d 1)
  3. Jonny (Qual’d 5)
  4. Carter (Qual’d 3)
  5. Mike T (Qual’d ?)

and Robert Allen Qual’d 2nd - nice work kid!!

I did not run or stick around on Sunday in my own form of protest. I’m still “tweaking” my writeup - amazing how work gets in the way.

-Vic[/quote]

I qualified 7th


#15

Thanks Vic but I think I finished 5th on Sat. (4th after your DQ)
I never got a results sheet so I could be wrong.
Anyway, I was running at the tail of the lead pack on both days and got some great video of the battle up front.
I’ll post it if i can figure out how with this damn camera :slight_smile:


#16

allenr wrote:

[quote]Thanks Vic but I think I finished 5th on Sat. (4th after your DQ)
[/quote]

Sorry - gotcha. Great running on Saturday - very impressive, and reminiscent of a young kid named Herrington :wink:


#17

allenr wrote:

[quote]Thanks Vic but I think I finished 5th on Sat. (4th after your DQ)
I never got a results sheet so I could be wrong.
Anyway, I was running at the tail of the lead pack on both days and got some great video of the battle up front.
I’ll post it if i can figure out how with this damn camera :)[/quote]

He is right, I came in after him on Sat.


#18

Here’s the Sunday race from my perspective.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=robert+allen+summit&hl=en&sitesearch=#q=robert%20allen%20summit%20spece30&hl=en&sitesearch=
Its got a pretty good (but sometimes distant) view of the battle for the lead.
Started well but ended badly with 944 trouble:angry:
If anyone has any suggestions about how to fix the skipping glitches please let me know.
Saturday race and Sunday stinger race to come by the end of the day.

…and yes, I mysspelld “apolOgies”:blush:


#19

The link didnt work so try the obvious searches on google vid.
(Robert Allen, SpecE30, Summit Point, etc.)


#20

Robert,

The video was pretty good. That 3 way battle was awesome.

The skipping is normally caused by the Camera’s write head bouncing and missing the tape, but your skips seem to be a little longer than normal. It this the first time you had this happen? Other than getting a solid state camera; just avoid hitting any bumps or getting punted:P