SpecE30 in BMWCCA Club Races

#21

If there were several others willing, I would love to try and make it to sebring for the june race as my “annual trip of amazingly ambitious road warriorness” :).

#22

dmwhite wrote:

[quote]
if i give a class winner sticker to the highest finishing spec e30 driver in the feature race (at the events i go to), will you round up some more racers to come to our events? ;)[/quote]

I agree that it is essentially creating a new class, even tho the cars are already allowed to run as is. But I was just offering this idea as an alternative to creating a new class from scratch. So the real issue is can “we” get more folks into CR by creating a new class or would we be more successfull in enticing SpecE30 types to come to “our” events?

Sure there’d be some dilution of KP. But every new class idea causes dilution. My idea is the only one that brings in cars from outside BMWCCA. The other new class ideas all just move the same people around within BMWCCA.

I was just using the “plastic trophy” line as a metaphor. In order to appeal to the SpecE30 drivers, so my scheme goes, we have to give them the idea that they have their own class. So what creates that perception? 1) Allow them to register as SpecE30, not KP. 2) Start them as a SpecE30 group, not mixed into KP. 3) Give them a plaque and a sticker, or whatever.

But again, this was all just a suggestion. I really have no dog in this fight. I’m amazed at how much folks have weighed in on it.

Can someone send me a link to some MyLaps data from Roebling, CMP and RA? Preferably Summer data. I’d be curious as to how my times match up. I’d always assumed that the KP guys were running a fair amount faster, but if not, well then screw this whole idea. Imagine their embarrassment should my sorry ass finish in front of their better KP car.

Everyone take a deep breath. It was just an idea. I have lots of ideas. Most of them ultimately turn out to be dumb.

#23

I may be one of the ‘target’ people for this discussion. I do not belong to BMWCCA nor see much of a benefit to it, since the CR program doesn’t really fit my car. If it did better provide a place for me to run with others of my same prep level, I’d be more interested in participating. Having to constantly re-sticker the car isn’t very appealing, though I imagine I could work around that. But I’m not going to expend the effort if I’m going to be at the tail end of a bunch of cars better prepared than I, or may even be looked down upon because I’m not a ‘real’ KP car.

OTOH, where I live in the Mid-Atlantic, I don’t really need BMWCCA’s race schedule either, so this issue doesn’t bother me that much. But it is something I’ve considered, so thought I’d weigh in.

#24

As someone who’s actually raced with BOTH NASA SpecE30 and BMW CCA in their SpecE30 car, I’d love the idea of having SpecE30 recognized as a class in CCA CR. When John and I started the build on our car, we were going to end up straddling the rule set of both series and consequently being competitive in neither. But the object for us was fun, not a championship hunt. When CCA recognized the SpecE30 “as is” into the KP class, we were thrilled because it made life easier, even if we weren’t any more competitive with that group.

Our first CCA race was this past September at O’fest at Watkins Glen. I can say without a doubt that the “real” KP cars are decidedly at an advantage. With the incredibly long back straight at WGI and the obvious advantages their mods provide, I had my ass handed to me on a platter racing in 100% SpecE30 trim with the R888s. But I still had a great time. We were there to get on that legendary track and put some races against that rookie license status.

Obviously, we’re not the “target market” for adding a SpecE30 or Lite Prep class to CCA - we’re already there. We’ll be racing again with CCA at Roebling next weekend. Another few ticks against the rookie license. Another chance to get to a fun track. Another chance to race.
Will we be more competitive this time? Hopefully. Maybe the track config will help a little there-fewer straights. I have no doubt we’ll have a good time again, but who really wants to be in the back ALL the time? I know I don’t. I have to think that’s a big reason why other racers wouldn’t want to come out to play with CCA. The thing that keeps repeating in my head is “if you build it, he will come” from Field of Dreams. If there’s a class available to you that you can actually be competitive in, lets you participate in more races and works into your schedule/budget - why wouldn’t you go?

One last thought…
I know people will probably get tired of hearing me say this, but I’m not sure why “stickergate” is such an issue. Yes, CCA requires their number board and sponsor stickers. If you care about the way your car looks like we do, go ahead and order the single color die-cut decals. We fit all the required decals into a fairly compact space with no issues. And if you don’t want them on all the time, throw them on a piece of magnetic sheet and slap them on as needed with a little racers tape on the leading edge. The window banner is a bit more of a PITA, but unless you’re in the MA region (if I remember correctly) NASA doesn’t require one, and you wouldn’t have to worry too much about putting in on or taking it off unless you wanted to. My NASA/PBOC/CCA decals all co-exist happily together with plenty of room to spare.

#25

Sweet ride.

As to racing with BMWCCA, I don’t get what’s the big deal. If you want to play, run what you brung and get seat time and have a great time. If you want to really win, then have a spare ecu, coilovers and a spare set of wheels with hosers - what is that a day’s effort including setting the camber and corner weights?

Personally, I’d prefer to see this much passion about racing SpecE30 ruleset with SCCA.

#26

spec e30 is a regional class in the rocky mountain scca region so it can be done if someone wants to run with it.
see http://spece30.com/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,86/func,view/id,29130/catid,16/#29130
cheers,
bruce

Age wrote:

[quote]Sweet ride.

As to racing with BMWCCA, I don’t get what’s the big deal. If you want to play, run what you brung and get seat time and have a great time. If you want to really win, then have a spare ecu, coilovers and a spare set of wheels with hosers - what is that a day’s effort including setting the camber and corner weights?

Personally, I’d prefer to see this much passion about racing SpecE30 ruleset with SCCA.[/quote]

#27

Looks like you can now run in spec e30 with the bmwcca.

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/HotNews.aspx?seq=62

[quote]BMW CCA Club Racing Expands Classes - published: Dec 11, 2008

Greenville, SC (December 11, 2008) – BMW CCA Club Racing is delighted to announce that beginning in 2009 it will accept BMW race cars prepared to other sanctioning bodies’ class rules. These cars will run within their foreign classes at BMW CCA Club Racing-sanctioned events.

BMW CCA Club Racing has a well-defined set of rules with five preparation levels and classes that were designed to be inclusive, providing a place for members to race their cars. Currently there are some provisions for BMWs that may not meet the specific preparation requirements to participate within the existing class structure. The change maintains the BMW CCA Club Racing classes while welcoming BMW’s prepared to other road racing classes as well.

The non-BMW CCA Club Racing classes will be integrated into the program following the BMW CCA Club Racing rules with one exception; they will not be eligible for National Championship points. However, they will participate for Regional Championships in their respective classes; this is, of course, independent of the sanctioning body for whose class the car is prepared.

While BMW CCA Club Racings preparation levels and classes have a place for all race prepared BMWs, this change recognizes several factors: 1) The BMW CCA Club Racing program is limited. With only 40 events per year there may not be enough activity in the area near the members to warrant their preparing a car to the BMW CCA Club Racing rules and another sanctioning body may provide more events locally. With this change they can participate in both their local series and the BMW CCA Club Racing series equally. 2) When prepared to other sanctioning bodies rules the drivers may be disadvantaged when classed with cars fully prepared to the BMW CCA Club Racing rules. With this change drivers can participate in two series with the same preparation rules. 3) The potential for larger fields at any given event provides excitement for the participants and incentive for the promoters.[/quote]

#28

Ya I just got that. Am astounded. Have this big shit-eatin grin on my face.

#29

:blink:

#30

Elephant4 wrote:

pretty much sums up my reaction too…

#31

Thanks for posting it. I got the email on CR list, but I can’t view it cause www.bmwccaclubracing.com is blocked by websense for Malicious content.

Did they say anything about the stickers issues? Do you have to run BMWCCA number panels. I guess I will read it all when I get home.

#32

Elephant4 wrote:

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I can’t say for certain that I will attend a BMWCCA race this coming year, but I absolutely would not have before the official class recognition.

If I were willing to use up a weekend on track without the ability to see how I really stack up against others, I would do a DE and get a lot more track time. I enjoy the close racing, not just the driving around in anger. But that part’s fun, too!

Steve D.

#33

The BMW CR guys all seem to be down about this. It’s hard for me to understand their reaction. Over here in SpecE30 there’s folks now getting excited about coming to race with CR, yet the CR guys are complaining how the change will dilutes their classes.

#34

From the Spectator point of view It will Dilute their classes.not that there are many spectators for our sport.

Let say you have 9 e30 racing, 3 can be BMW KP, 3 could be SpecE30, and 3 could be Scca ITS.

From a racing point of View, I guess it could get confusing on who your actually racing against, and the new set e30 back markers could could stir things up.

People fear the unknown. In the end it will be the same, just with more cars on the track.

#35

Ranger wrote:

you seem to be ignoring the negative impact this will have on bmwcca club racing…diluting the class counts (we already have too many classes, imo)…

spec e30 racers already have a place to race in bmwcca (as do scca its/itr bmws)…are they guaranteed to be competitive? nope. just like any other racer that takes his car to another series, they are not guaranteed that they will be competitive in their class…

if nasa did something that took away cars from your class (reduce the spec e30 car count), would you see things differently?

this change can/will reduce the number of in-class competitors of all our classes…how is that a good thing?

making a class for spec e30 i could stomach, but opening up the flood gates (think of all the classes that just got added for a potential small car count increase) is a bad idea…off the top of my head, all the scca IT classes, nasa gts, nasa pt, st, and spec e30 classes just got added…class based racing isn’t quite as fun when there are tons of classes with a few entries…there needs to be some restrictions on this new class thing…

#36

LOL, I was thinking about you as a I read the announcement :wink:

Ranger wrote:

#37

dmwhite wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

you seem to be ignoring the negative impact this will have on bmwcca club racing…diluting the class counts (we already have too many classes, imo)…

spec e30 racers already have a place to race in bmwcca (as do scca its/itr bmws)…are they guaranteed to be competitive? nope. just like any other racer that takes his car to another series, they are not guaranteed that they will be competitive in their class…

if nasa did something that took away cars from your class (reduce the spec e30 car count), would you see things differently?

this change can/will reduce the number of in-class competitors of all our classes…how is that a good thing?

making a class for spec e30 i could stomach, but opening up the flood gates (think of all the classes that just got added for a potential small car count increase) is a bad idea…off the top of my head, all the scca IT classes, nasa gts, nasa pt, st, and spec e30 classes just got added…class based racing isn’t quite as fun when there are tons of classes with a few entries…there needs to be some restrictions on this new class thing…[/quote]

I think that we will have to agree to disagree. And I acknowledge that you’ve been doing this far longer then I. But…

I understand that CR guys are concerned about class dilution. But I don’t think that it’s going to be the problem that some describe. Someone pointed out a while back that half of the 8 KP cars at Roebling were SpecE30’s. That means 4 cars honestly in KP and 4 that were just there for fun. If the KP guys counted coup for beating the SpecE30 guys, they were kidding themselves.

So lets say because of the rule change 4 more SpecE30 guys come. The 4 car KP class remains unchanged because it never really was 8. But now you’ve got a bigger race because there’s 4 more SpecE30 entrants. The change didn’t really take 4 cars from KP, because few really even considered them “real” KP cars anyhow.

And a number of folks talked about how few SpecE30’s really raced in CR races anyhow. Those same folks (and I’m not saying you) can hardly now complain that creating a class for SpecE30 is going to dilute KP.

A guy on BF.c said that he perceives this as largely targeted at NASA SpecE30. I think that is likely. I’d be surprised if their were enough of an influx of other BMW’s for CR to hardly notice. The SpecE30’s can come have fun in a CR race because there are a lot of us. There are not a lot of BMW’s in the other NASA classes, so they’d be coming to race in a class of 1. Which makes it less likely that they would come at all.

So I don’t think that letting SpecE30’s run in their own class is going to cause KP class dilution because, de facto, they really weren’t in that class anyhow. Sure, they were formally classed there, but folks “knew” differently.

And I don’t think that the other classes are going to experience much dilution because I don’t think there are that many other BMW cars that are looking to get into CR. But I plead ignorance re. SCCA IT. I don’t know how many BMW’s are over there, nor how those guys think.

Now Spec3 and Spec36 might have a problem in a couple years if Spec3 takes off. I can see Spec36 guys choosing instead to go Spec3 in those regions where NASA has more races. Because a Spec3 guy could race with both NASA and CR, whereas a Spec36 guy could only race with CR. If I was a Spec36 guy, this would be cause for concern that some of my class would flee to Spec3.

There is going to be some teething pains, sure. And also no one likes change. But I think that BMWCCA is going to see an influx of new enthusiastic drivers who are glad to be aboard. I understand the concern over class dilution but I think that the primary result of this change is going to be a new class of CR drivers calling themselves SpecE30. And the primary result will be growth, not dilution.

If CR finds that bringing in SpecE30 worked well, but bringing in other classes worked poorly, they can always change their minds.

#38

Ranger wrote:

like i said, adding a spec e30 class is one thing (which i’d be ok with as it really only affects one current class) but opening it up to any/all classes is the issue (that can affect ALL of the classes)…

let’s look beyond spec e30…

right now, ITS/ITR cars can run in JP and they are typically pretty competitive…now those cars will be removed from JP and run in their own separate classes…also ANY car in ANY class can decide that they want to run as a gts car…if someone is not competitive (due to the car or the driver), they can just decide that they want to run as a gts car so they can get a class win…this hurts competition…

i think CR management went about this in the wrong way…they should have tried out a spec e30 class to see if if helped or hurt before they went and added a bunch of classes…

#39

dmwhite wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

like i said, adding a spec e30 class is one thing (which i’d be ok with as it really only affects one current class) but opening it up to any/all classes is the issue (that can affect ALL of the classes)…

let’s look beyond spec e30…

right now, ITS/ITR cars can run in JP and they are typically pretty competitive…now those cars will be removed from JP and run in their own separate classes…also ANY car in ANY class can decide that they want to run as a gts car…if someone is not competitive (due to the car or the driver), they can just decide that they want to run as a gts car so they can get a class win…this hurts competition…

i think CR management went about this in the wrong way…they should have tried out a spec e30 class to see if if helped or hurt before they went and added a bunch of classes…[/quote]

Ya, that’s reasonable.

#40

Think about this from another perspective:
What are nasa and scca thinking about having their drivers race with other sactioning bodies? It couldnt help NASA SE30 turnouts to have CCA races available too. If your average se30 driver can afford one race a month, and chooses to run a BMWCCA race, then he wont be able to run the nasa race that month. Maybe it wont hurt, but I sure dont see it helping nasa SE30. On the other hand, it could really help a growing class like spec3 by taking away guys who would have gone the spece36 route.