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After watching, both drivers are at fault. One did not leave any racing room, which was clearly available and the other car for making the bonehead move.
With that much speed coming on there is no way with that much track width that the car being passed could have kept it from happening. Then again, the passer could have easily ripped it back left and kept motoring on around him. If he had moved back, then the person being passed would have been cited for blocking.
Anyone ever heard of the legal term “proximate cause”? The proximate cause here was the attempted pass by the white car on the right. Had he not tried to pass nothing would have happened. Ergo, he is at fault, and the only one at fault. Chuck
But, it is racing and person clearly was going faster.
I do love everybody’s comment on slowing down and being courteous - then we get out there in a race and cars come back damaged because adrenaline is pumping, you got a run on somebody and refuse to give up.
Let’s face it, it’s racing and people want to do well. That could’ve been DeV after his Saturday disqual trying to get to the front on Sunday - white and black cars both know he is 3 seconds faster a lap, but it’s racing and they are not obligated to yield.
Just saying, don’t be so critical of the While car driver - I’m willing to bet a lot of us have been in a similar situation.
“Just saying, don’t be so critical of the While car driver - I’m willing to bet a lot of us have been in a similar situation.”
Could not disagree more. In 9 years of racing I have never put myself in that situation and I seriously doubt many of us have. Chuck
my two cents…
after watching the line of each car separately… white passer, white passee and black. then seeing the actual racing line by the cars in front, i clearly see the white passee off line and impeading/pushing the passer to the wall.
the passer has got some big balls to go in that tight, but the the passee was obviously not given room for him.
is that fair??? i would have given him the line… just saying.
[quote=“ukrbmw” post=57243]That could’ve been DeV after his Saturday disqual trying to get to the front on Sunday - white and black cars both know he is 3 seconds faster a lap, but it’s racing and they are not obligated to yield. [/quote]True, not obligated to yield at all. Completely the passer’s fault.
But I still think it was a dick move for the leading white car to move the other guy over given how fast the trailing car was coming. Even 100% legal, it was a dick move. Schumacher-esque. And a dick move.
My two cents… the biggest bone head was the passee. He was WAY OFF LINE and SQUEEZING the the passer into a CONCRETE WALL - even though the passer was door to door with him - and continued to make unsettling contact with the passer after he was well past. The second bone head was the passer. Not because he attempted (completed) the pass, but because he did not recognized the complicated situation he was in* and back off a bit as he approached the apex. The driver of the black car was essentially an innocent bystander except that he seemed to be unaware of the fast moving car to his inside. Not obligated to yeild the corner, but was not forced to dive so hard for the apex - I assume he simply did not know there was someone essentially divebombing him into the corner.
In my view the fault is passee>>passer>bystander.
I would not mind racing with the passer but I would be very unhappy abourt racing with someone that would intentially or unintentionally force me into a concrete barrier.
Its a tough call but it looks like the passing car just would not lift even if they are going to hit the dark car as it apexs the turn at the wall. Just ran right into the back of him even after rubbing the outside white car. It did not look like the passing car would have pulled that off even in the outside car left a bit more room. The passing car was blocked by the dark car in front, white car to the left and wall to the right. If the passing car lifted this would not have happened. He took the risk can came up short and unfortunately the dark car did as well.
[quote=“Steve D” post=57246][quote=“ukrbmw” post=57243]That could’ve been DeV after his Saturday disqual trying to get to the front on Sunday - white and black cars both know he is 3 seconds faster a lap, but it’s racing and they are not obligated to yield. [/quote]True, not obligated to yield at all. Completely the passer’s fault.
But I still think it was a dick move for the leading white car to move the other guy over given how fast the trailing car was coming. Even 100% legal, it was a dick move. Schumacher-esque. And a dick move.[/quote]
NASA requires that an overtaking car’s front wheel must be up to the driver of the car
being overtaken before the overtaking car has a right to be there and must be given
“racing room”. “Racing room” is defined by NASA as at least ¾ of one car width.
Watch the video a few more times. Even when the driver of the passing car does get along side him, he still squeezes him. Why the guy passing didn’t go to the left is beyond me. Way off the racing line.
Also the passing car never let up. 2 boneheaded moves.
Ridonculous.
[quote=“cwbaader” post=57244]“Just saying, don’t be so critical of the While car driver - I’m willing to bet a lot of us have been in a similar situation.”
Could not disagree more. In 9 years of racing I have never put myself in that situation and I seriously doubt many of us have. Chuck[/quote]
Chuck - we all know you’ve never done anything aggressive or outside the box in your racing career. However, my bet is, if you were the white car getting passed, you wouldn’t squeeze the outside car that much either. Thoughts?
[quote=“Foglght” post=57250][quote=“Steve D” post=57246][quote=“ukrbmw” post=57243]That could’ve been DeV after his Saturday disqual trying to get to the front on Sunday - white and black cars both know he is 3 seconds faster a lap, but it’s racing and they are not obligated to yield. [/quote]True, not obligated to yield at all. Completely the passer’s fault.
But I still think it was a dick move for the leading white car to move the other guy over given how fast the trailing car was coming. Even 100% legal, it was a dick move. Schumacher-esque. And a dick move.[/quote]
NASA requires that an overtaking car’s front wheel must be up to the driver of the car
being overtaken before the overtaking car has a right to be there and must be given
“racing room”. “Racing room” is defined by NASA as at least ¾ of one car width.
Watch the video a few more times. Even when the driver of the passing car does get along side him, he still squeezes him. Why the guy passing didn’t go to the left is beyond me. Way off the racing line.
Also the passing car never let up. 2 boneheaded moves.
Ridonculous.[/quote]
Agreed - I’m not by any means trying to excuse the passers behavior. In the end he clearly was on a mission and it simply backfired. But, if I’m the white or black car getting passed I’d have to sit there and take just a minute to think about it. In the end they both got tore up by what was likely a move to hold up a guy who was going to pass them regardless.
Actually, no, I have never put myself in that type of situation. I always let discretion be the better part of valor. You cannot win a race on a start or restart. Chuck
So by my count it looks lie the opinions line up like this…
Passee at fault = 3
Passer at fault = 8
Both at fault = 2
Comment but no opinion = 1
Looks to me like the loser is the winner in this one. Definitely a good lesson about taking calculated risks and when to take them in this unfortunate incident. As a novice racer myself I would not have taken that risk knowing that the faster car would have had many more chances to overtake further down the track at one point or another.
It appears to me that the passee intentionally ran the passer to the wall. Plus he apparently did not care if he spun the passer (there were two points of contact between the white cars before any apparent lifting). There is no excuse (IMHO) for intentionally squeezing a passing car off the track or intentionally spinning a guy. Particularly when there is a pack of cars directly behind and a corner worker standing right there. That could have been much uglier than it was. Both guys are boneheads but the passee was (apparently) the one who put others (many) in danger.
Based on the limited evidence here I agree with Herrington. I would not want to race around that guy.
I’d like to know what the drivers of the white cars have to say for them selves. I am pretty sure the driver of the dark car said “WTF was that?”
Don
I dont think this should have been put on here for us all to speculate about. And we ARE all speculating. We can not see this situation from multiple camera angles and the distances between the cars and the wall is not clear.
This is why you have race stewards. It is their job to determine fault, if any, and hand out penalties. Done. There is an appeal process in many organizations, but then done.
Our organization NASA has clearly defined rules that can be applied to this situation, but I was not there, the video evidence is weak at best to determine distances, I don’t know the track (for those of you that do, clearly you have an advantage in looking at this), what APPEARS to us watching a grainy wide angle video is inconclusive at best. Our NASA race directors are assigned the difficult task of assigning blame at times and although I do not always agree, they do have a pretty good track record of applying their rules. In all the incidents I have personally witnessed, I believe the rules were sufficient to assign, or not, blame. 25.4.5
NASA rules are “a car width” when there is a wall. 3/4 car width when no wall.
I would like to say I have never made a bone head move, but as an imperfect human, I am sure I have. So far I only know of costing a guy a door and another a rear qrtr panel when he spun in front of me, but if I race long enough it may be worse, I hope not, but it may. (if you doubt you are imperfect, ask your wife or kids).
It is the passing drivers responsibility to execute and complete a safe pass. It is in the rules look it up. 25.4.1
Recommended reading for all of us pages 108-123 in NASA CCRs
Some guys in our series will never try a really aggressive move, some guys will. get ready for it. Even if you are right and teh other guy is wrong you will still have a car to fix.
We used to say when racing motorcycles, “if you ain’t ready to get hurt, don’t ride”. Stuff happens.
In conclusion I feel bad for both guys who went in the wall. Neither can probably afford it. Most of us can’t or we’d be driving in Grand Am, or racing GT3s (come on you know you want to). I am glad I am not a race steward. I am glad I was not any of the 3 guys involved. But I do know how it feels to get hit hard from behind (no, not you Ironman, yours was a love kiss, I am talkin’ Rx-7, 4k in damage) and have my season ruined, it sucks! If we didn’t have EGOs we would not race, if you have your EGO fully in check congrats!
Lastly if you really like analysing this video, I am sure they have a spot for you up in the tower!
IMHO, the Shoe is mostly right in his posting…however, I think the posting of the video is a good exercise in judgement. Perhaps something from the SE30 racers incident bag was not the best choice to use, but it contains an excellent lesson to be learned.
As for fault, I say they both contributed to the accident. Here is what I can see…
The white/black car on the left saw the white/white car on his right and squeezed him so it was not an easy pass. From the looks of things, he gave him 1 1/2 to 1/3/4 car width well before the pit wall came into play. However, if you look at the shadows of the cars, the white/white car was dead even with the white/black car just before they reach the cones, which means he had presented himself and had the corner slightly before that. Here is where things go wrong. The white/black car should have lifted and gave the other car the corner. Granted, the white/white car made a poor choice to pass in that corner, but the white/white car did get mirror to mirror with him far enough before the corner that the driver of the white/black car could have given the corner up in time.
What I see next is the white/white car start to lean into the white/black car and try to nudge them both to the left since the white/white car is now becomeing aware that making the turn at that speed will be a tough one to pull off with the white/black car right next to him. But when the the white/black car sees the the white/white car pulling ahead and leaning big time on him (you can see the white/black cars front tires are turning to fight that force the from the passing car) coupled with the dark car to his left, he probably got out of the throttle (note how fast his brake lights come on seeing what is about to happen). That is when the white/white car’s rear bumper cleared the white/black car’s front bumper and he had nothing to lean on. Watch the white/white car’s front tires when he clears the white/black car, they are already correcting the car’s oversteer indications. If I was speculating, the driver of the white/black car got out of it to help the other car snap out of line quickly and allow him to collect the dark car and not him.
Once that happens, the dark car on the far left is just driving on line and the white/white car snaps right into him and collects them both. clearly not the driver of the dark car’s fault.
Long story short, passer bought this one as soon as the red mist took over and he committed to a very low percentage pass. True, the passee could have been more “courteous,” but I don’t know that he was the determining factor as he gave the passing car racing room. Not to mention that if he is racing for position, he did make it clear he was not going to make it easy for the other driver and if the other driver wanted to make a low percentage pass, that is a choice he would have to make. turns out he did and it was a bad one.
The leasson here is that situational awareness was not exercised; that much is clear. It also gives all racers a chance to walk in the shoes of the steward for a moment and hopefully see that sometimes their job is not an easy one.
As the Shoe said, I feel bad for both of them. I do hope they both walked away uninjured and wrinkled body work is the worst that happened.
just my .02
I’m not convinced the car in front knew he was being overtaken on the right, if you look at his line independent of the incident it just looks like’s trying to take the shortest distance from his current position.
Also some of you guys interpreting him turning into the passer have clearly never been mid turn and touched as you don’t have normal steering control.
I don’t think it’s as clear cut as some you seem to think. If there video from one of the white cars that would help a lot.
Yes there’s a background to my opinion on this. Once driving an ITA car I had a Miata (what else…) try to stuff himself between me and the wall on my right going into T13 at MidOhio (the fast left after Thunder Valley). Yes I saw him there while in Thunder Valley but I thought there’s no way he’s going to keep going with that (aka you can’t make that move here) and then focused my attention on the turn. When we were side by side, knocking front wheels, I was trying to turn away from him and could not. He was pissed, thought I did it intentionally but I can assure you I would never do such a thing. The stewards watched my video and agreed I didn’t do anything out of the ordinary.