Poor Decisions - Where is the outrage?

#61

and fwiw, that’s the first thing I expect.

#62

Having just watched the video for the first time from Scott’s car…

If it was wet grass, even with both feet in the guy went off the track and it appeared there was no way to get the car slowed down before re-entering. This would make sense given the wet grass scenario. Wet, grassy tires re-entering a racetrack would likely have done exactly what he did and the reason he got hit and came back across the track.

Driving on the wet grass? Hell no! Dry grass, sure. Wet grass with race tires is driving on ice. If you do have ABS hooked up, the car is still going to take a hell of a long time to slow down and if you don’t have ABS, the chances of anyone feeling the threshold brake point is about zero.

#63

Thought I’d toss my hat in the ring…my vote counts double since I was there :slight_smile:

Ranger, after watching your video, I think I would have reacted the exact same way, and would now be typing this e-mail with one hand. Hope the wrist heals up nicely!

-Vic

#64

My $.02…

I started racing in SE at the end of 2007, and raced all of '08-'11. I took off most of '12 and '13 due to time and financial commitments, but I am coming back to SpecE30 for the whole season next year. From '07 - '11, I had in-class contact twice, once in turn 14 at CMP and once when Kelly, Walsh and I tried 3 wide into the museum turn at Barber (bad idea, by the way). I do not race very aggressively, and I take pride in the fact that I finish every race with a clean car, because I don’t want to damage my car or anyone else’s car.

Before I began my hiatus in '11, I was troubled by the fact that none of the “new kids” could pass me without touching my car at some point during the pass or leaning on me mid-turn. I experienced more “casual racing contact” in one race at CMP than I had experienced in 4 years of racing. I strongly believe a lot of it is the mentality of the racers. If I don’t think I can make a pass without making contact with the other car, I back off and wait for another opportunity. Many of the racers in our class today seem to want to make the pass if they see even the slightest opportunity. I don’t believe that is what amateur racing is about. We should be out there to have fun and not damage race cars. Those should be the two biggest priorities every weekend…

Prediction: DeVinney’s next post will be to call me a wimp or something similar. :slight_smile:

#65

As tempting as that is, I can’t find any fault with your post.

My definition of true talent is to qualify well, finish better, and bring the car back with no marks other than tire boogers (from passing out of class cars, of course :laugh: ).

I am not at all opposed to aggressive drivers unless those drivers have a pattern of contact. My goal was always to employ just slightly less aggression than my level of car control.

Looking waaaaay ahead AND responding early in an incident when you’ve lost control will do a lot for minimizing collateral damage.

#66

[quote=“D Walsh” post=74494]We are a large group of equally matched cars, Crap Happens.

I echo everything McKay said about how close we run and the reasons this class is fun.
For every 1 person that drops out over their car being dented, there are 5 more getting involved.

I believe Spec E30 is the best class in the country and close racing is the reason for it. Most of us love how close we run. I don’t want to see anyone get hurt nor do I particularly enjoy spending time or money on repairs. I do however accept that my car may be scratched, dented, or totaled, every time I go on track and its still 100% worth it to me.[/quote]

I do agree with Walsh, McKay and Pantas on this. For all the all the reasons we love this series, it also makes it riskier than others. I also agree with thought posted a few times that we don’t need more rules, we have enough rules. We need consequences. Without consequences, the thought of low-risk moves will continue. If they are minor and we talk amoungst ourselves, even better. But if the driver’s can’t agree or don’t want to agree, then consequences will need to be handed down.

#67

65 replies running the full range of opinions.

The premise of this thread has been questioned, but since I’ve probably run more races than anyone except Robert/Laura since 2006, and that in my opinion the series had a taken a turn in the wrong direction, I thought I had the right, and obligation, to bring it up and express my opinion. If nothing else, exposing that there is wide divergence of thought made it worthwhile. Clearly there are racers who think these episodes are to be expected, and also racers who feel exactly the opposite. I never meant to try and put the specific incident at VIR under the microscope, but rather cite it as the most recent in a string of similar events.

The only possible consensus I can see emerging from this is that there should be a higher level of review, and increased consequences for poor decisions, although specific consequences and tactics to achieve either seem elusive.

This series, this class, exists for the participants, so I think collectively we need to decide how we want it to work. A lot of people cite how fun this type of racing is, me included, but it would be a lot more fun if there were less seriously wrecked cars. How can we keep the fun, but reduce the negatives?

This thread has pretty much died down at this point, and rightly so, but in the remaining races this year it would be good to have a SE30/NASA-SE leadership discussion about how everyone wants to go forward next year.

#68

chuck, i disagree, i see no consenus for a higher level of review or increased consequnces

At least not from the mid-atl guys…and yes this is the southeast forum but the event in question was a mid-atl race. if people are upset about poor moves or stupid mistakes, file a protest under the rules…Take advantage of the current systm before you add your “higher level of review”

Just my two cents based on doing this stuff for 13 years.

i for one dont think so

[quote=“ctbimmer” post=74598]65 replies running the full range of opinions.

The premise of this thread has been questioned, but since I’ve probably run more races than anyone except Robert/Laura since 2006, and that in my opinion the series had a taken a turn in the wrong direction, I thought I had the right, and obligation, to bring it up and express my opinion. If nothing else, exposing that there is wide divergence of thought made it worthwhile. Clearly there are racers who think these episodes are to be expected, and also racers who feel exactly the opposite. I never meant to try and put the specific incident at VIR under the microscope, but rather cite it as the most recent in a string of similar events.

The only possible consensus I can see emerging from this is that there should be a higher level of review, and increased consequences for poor decisions, although specific consequences and tactics to achieve either seem elusive.

This series, this class, exists for the participants, so I think collectively we need to decide how we want it to work. A lot of people cite how fun this type of racing is, me included, but it would be a lot more fun if there were less seriously wrecked cars. How can we keep the fun, but reduce the negatives?

This thread has pretty much died down at this point, and rightly so, but in the remaining races this year it would be good to have a SE30/NASA-SE leadership discussion about how everyone wants to go forward next year.[/quote]

#69

Didn’t Harper and Taylor say the same thing?

Take the current rule set under consideration: closer review leads to filing protest.

Got it.

RP

PS, even when you “know who you are racing with” stuff can happen.

#70

[quote=“harper” post=74600]chuck, i disagree, i see no consenus for a higher level of review or increased consequnces

At least not from the mid-atl guys…and yes this is the southeast forum but the event in question was a mid-atl race. if people are upset about poor moves or stupid mistakes, file a protest under the rules…Take advantage of the current systm before you add your “higher level of review”

Just my two cents based on doing this stuff for 13 years.

i for one dont think so
[/quote]
Mid-Atl reviewed the incident and there were consequences. Maybe the SE SpecE30 guys are looking with interest at how MidAtl is doing it.

The challenge for Jim Pantas and Chris Cobetto is to find the right blend that maximizes fun and participation in a culture of so little consensus it’s like herding cats. Most of what Jim hears, I’m sure, is complaints. If we want change, we have to do more than complain, we have to propose something.

It’s easy to complain. It’s harder to be part of a solution.

Ideas we could take to Jim, off the top of my head:

  1. Increase the consequences for our SpecE30 decisions. This wouldn’t affect out of class behavior.

  2. Increase the consequences for bad decisions in Lightning. This is a hard sell because we’re asking for a global change. We might not have a compelling argument for the need for global change. It would be a lot bigger struggle to gain some consensus.

  3. Jim tells our co-directors that they can issue penalties ranging up to sitting out events. The charm of this is that it keeps our internal issues out of his hair.

  4. Lobby for driver conduct rule changes to reduce incidents, be they class (like Spec944) or regional. IMO this isn’t necessary. I went thru the NASA CCR with a fine tooth comb the other day. I think the rules are good enough, altho I’m not convinced they’re understood all that well. People seem to often miss the qualifiers in the sentences like “in most cases…” I think that if everyone noted those qualifiers we wouldn’t hear anymore “sure, it was aggressive, but it’s within the rules”.

For example, IMO we don’t need a rule that addresses more specific scenarios. “in most cases” gives the adjudicator the flexibility to tell anyone “you did something dumb and the consequences are < >” if need be. Heck, 25.3 (Rough driving) could be applied in any situation the adjudicator wanted.

Some of the non driver conduct rules that were mentioned in this thread that I did think were interesting tho were:
-Have to have a camera.
-If you cause an incident the director may require a higher standard of cosmetic repair.
-Consequences for missing driver meetings and failing to send a representative.

  1. Feel strongly about the comp school curriculum? Volunteer to write up some changes and participate.

I’m not advocating the above, I’m just throwing them out there for discussion.

#71

[quote=“Ranger” post=74607[/quote]
Mid-Atl reviewed the incident and there were consequences. Maybe the SE SpecE30 guys are looking with interest at how MidAtl is doing it."

Ranger, good to know, I had to leave immediately after race sat for family stuff so I wasn’t around to hear the results of that…curious what the review results were if anyone wants to share, certainly understand if they don’t.

The fact that the incident was reviewed and there were consquences illustrates my point. I assume this continuing discussion means people were not satisfied that those consequences were enough?

Again, why do Jim and Chris need to re-invent the wheel, NASA has a CCR that is/should be followed, if people break the rules, a protest can be filed and sanctions handed out (which it sounds like happened here)

as for the other suggestions
"-Have to have a camera."
—absolutely, crazy if you don’t, got protested once for a pass under yellow (from a good friend), only the video showed him that my pass was good

“-If you cause an incident the director may require a higher standard of cosmetic repair.”
-----strongly disagree with this suggestion, this is a money issue, my attitude is never create a higher barrier to racers making more weekends, this rule does that…
"-Consequences for missing driver meetings and failing to send a representative."
----------never seen this to be a problem in the Mid-atl so no comment

“5) Feel strongly about the comp school curriculum? Volunteer to write up some changes and participate.”
-----I think one spec e30 driver i spoke to is working on/has suggestions for part of comp school being a session on crash avoidance.

#72

I think that there are some misunderstandings here.

This is a SE subforum. Near as I can tell no one is suggesting anything about Chris nor MidAtl.

This is a SE subforum. I think the thread focuses on the last couple years of SE racing. One of those many races was at the “combined” VIR event.

Re. “not satisfied that those consequences were enough”. I think the general reaction among SE SpecE30 guys was more along the lines of “Consequences? There can be consequences? Wow. Interesting. I’ll have to think about this new world.”

I don’t sense anyone is suggesting that the wheel be reinvented. But it’s more complicated then simply saying that the CCR should be followed. Judgement calls and consequences are all gray. When, for an example, is an action a violation of 25.3 “Rough driving”? If racing room is “in most cases” 3/4 of a car width, what are those scenarios outside of “most”?

#73

Ranger, this response quoted below explains a lot ;-), appreciate that insight, makes me feel better about this thread and discussion,.

Re. “not satisfied that those consequences were enough”. I think the general reaction among SE SpecE30 guys was more along the lines of “Consequences? There can be consequences? Wow. Interesting. I’ll have to think about this new world.”

In that case, I will sit back and try to remain quite :wink:

#74

I deal with rules all day long. I can tell you this, we don’t need more rules, we have plenty of them, and we have plenty of enforcement power. We just need to actually use the rules we have. We already have rules that allow directors to discipline, at any level, poor, rough, stupid, etc. driving.

I think it is a great idea to have the comp school people taught crash avoidance, but we would probably all disagree on what should be taught. Ranger is one of my favorite guys in the paddock, but I think that drive off road stuff is just totally insane, and I would never want that taught. I would teach getting on the brakes early, getting a hand up off the steering wheel waving, etc, but I’m sure others will disagree with even that, which makes teaching tough. I do agree that comp school students should be taught how to properly drive off road, which is taking it off gently, staying cool, and bringing it back on gently.

Anyhow, let’s keep this fun.

McKay out

#75

[quote=“BigKeyserSoze” post=74612]I deal with rules all day long. I can tell you this, we don’t need more rules, we have plenty of them, and we have plenty of enforcement power. We just need to actually use the rules we have. We already have rules that allow directors to discipline, at any level, poor, rough, stupid, etc. driving.

I think it is a great idea to have the comp school people taught crash avoidance, but we would probably all disagree on what should be taught. Ranger is one of my favorite guys in the paddock, but I think that drive off road stuff is just totally insane, and I would never want that taught. I would teach getting on the brakes early, getting a hand up off the steering wheel waving, etc, but I’m sure others will disagree with even that, which makes teaching tough. I do agree that comp school students should be taught how to properly drive off road, which is taking it off gently, staying cool, and bringing it back on gently.

Anyhow, let’s keep this fun.

McKay out[/quote]
The CCR now has an appendix of diagrams to talk people thru passing rules. BMWCCA CR had this appendix for a while now but for NASA it’s relatively new. Big thumbs up for NASA because the diagrams are a big help in getting people on the same sheet of music on the rights and obligations of passer and passee. Hopefully they go over them in detail during comp school.

#76

In MA, I think there have been relatively few issues regarding the type of problems you seem to be having in the SE. I think part of this is because of our race director JJ being very consistent on all of his race incident calls/penalties. Sometimes i think it’s even too strict, but the consistency makes it easy to know how to drive on track. He holds to the “passer must pass safely” as rule #1. If there is contact, and a car goes off track, almost always this is a DQ for the passer, even if the passer is 9/10ths completed with the pass. and even if the miata driver admits that he never saw you when you were completely door to door with him :rolleyes: Like i said, strict, but consistent.

i don’t know how the VIR incident turned out, but i would guess he penalized the middle car (espinosa?) for not passing safely. Maybe a penalty for the car merging back onto the track also.

#77

If there are penalties being given out in MA, that’s good to hear, but then you were there and you don’t know. What’s the point if they are not public? They should be talked about in drivers meetings and posted on this forum.

I started this as a SE thread for a reason. If MA has something working we can learn from, bring it on please.

#78

As I said, i packed and left within 20 mins of the race being over beacuse I had to be back in Richmond in 2 1/2 hours for a family thing, so I was around to hear how the race went/discuss good and bad moves/ penalties

others who were there may know more than me.

Honestly, I don’t know if NASA as a general rule makes their penalties “public” officially or not.

[quote=“ctbimmer” post=74616]If there are penalties being given out in MA, that’s good to hear, but then you were there and you don’t know. What’s the point if they are not public? They should be talked about in drivers meetings and posted on this forum.

I started this as a SE thread for a reason. If MA has something working we can learn from, bring it on please.[/quote]

#79

[quote=“ctbimmer” post=74616]
I started this as a SE thread for a reason. If MA has something working we can learn from, bring it on please.[/quote]

Understood, but this is a larger issue within the SE30 community and as such, the larger community should chime in and try and address the issue. MA, SE and FL all seem to be facing it.

#80

[quote=“TrackRat” post=74618][quote=“ctbimmer” post=74616]
I started this as a SE thread for a reason. If MA has something working we can learn from, bring it on please.[/quote]

Understood, but this is a larger issue within the SE30 community and as such, the larger community should chime in and try and address the issue. MA, SE and FL all seem to be facing it.[/quote]
I hear you but when consensus is tough it might be easier to go after small bites. Each region has it’s own personalities and it’s own challenges. I’m thinking that each region should go after their problems their own way. That will create an environment that is a testbed for lots of different ideas. Then regions can cherry pick from each other the ideas that seemed to work the best.

Certainly discussions and ideas cross boundaries, but if I say that a FL idea is lousy, I’m out of line because I’m not in the FL region. The fact that i’m smarter, more experienced and better looking(Note 1) then they are, especially Scott McKay, doesn’t matter.

Also, only about half of the racers regularly participate here in the forums. Missing their voices in the debates is a problem.

Subject change. IMO what we need is an injury fund where if you break a bone you get a free year of racing “in honor of your [strike]stupidity[/strike] sacrifice”. I cracked a rib in my fabulous Road Atlanta crash of '11 so with 2 bones broken I’m all over this.

Notes
(1) I acknowledge that Natalie is cuter than I.