Poor Decisions - Where is the outrage?

#41

I agree with grace and lighteningd

All the drivers involved blew it, including ranger ( no offense)

  1. Car on outside of one did not come back on in control, if I saw that I would have slowed because what happened was predictable
  2. Both feet in both feet in both feet in
  3. Ranger if you slowed you could have avoided everything, the car in front of you did
    Everyone needs to remember a. It’s a wood plaque, b. it’s @LAP ONE, relax

I am a pussy in turn one lap one…why? Because I have been doing this shit since 2000, I have 3 kids and a wife to come home to and I don’t want to build/buy another race car, being a pussy on lap ones doesn’t mean you don’t win races or championships…old adage of must first finish to finish first

Even though I am a lap one pussy I have won my share of races and championships, why because I do everything I can to avoid wrecks.

We don’t need more rules, we need people to follow the ones we have and drive smart, people have not been doing that

Paying for damage ridiculous, 5/50 rule silly

Everyone neds to calm down and race smart

My two cents worth, ignore it if you want, just some thoughts from 13 years of experience

Ps. Ask me how many races I didn’t finish because of contact…zero

Pss. knock on wood, that’s a streak I would like to continue

#42

I don’t agree that we’re clearly having more problems lately then the good old days. My recollection of the good old days include plenty of contact, some of which destroyed cars. Sure we have less problems with Miatas now but we used to have a lot of Miatas on the track with us and the fastest dozen of them were faster then the slowest dozen of us. Now we have a couple and they’re all slow. As a result there is a lot less contention with Miatas these days.

Scott McKay emphasizes experience levels and there’s truth there but I’d emphasize instead attitude. Some folks are aggressive because they want to do well. They will make riskier moves and they will generally not give you room when it might make your life a little easier. Others are more interested in drinking your beer and having the best one-liners after the race. They are less likely to make low percentage moves and are more likely to give you the room you need to survive.

Then there’s the Scott McKay target group that is low on experience, has weak situational awareness and can’t predict what the cars around them are likely to do.

If the guys that are aggressive overdo it there needs to be consequences. The guys that are just here for the beer need to have their every whim catered to, starting with me. The guys that are inexperienced need mentors to help them gain that experience. Feel strongly that inexperienced racers are a problem? Mentor them. Most of us experienced guys love to hear ourselves talk. We might not make you faster but we can help you with racecraft and keeping out of trouble. And we can relieve you of the burden of chilling all that beer in your cooler.

No one is lilly white. I’ve made mistakes over the years that embarrass me. I would encourage Robert and Fred to talk to Jim about them being deputized to issue probations, dq’s and bans. If it happens to me because I do something dumb, so be it.

Additionally, I’d like to see far more discussion, in comp school, of the gray areas of the rules. I’d like to see tricky scenarios discussed at length. I’d like to see clarification of some of the ambiguities of the rules. I’d be happy to help with all of that, but not everyone reacts well when I volunteer to fix all their inadequacies.

#43

[quote=“harper” post=74473]
3. Ranger if you slowed you could have avoided everything, the car in front of you did.[/quote]
Hell, if I had it to do over again I’d have slowed to a crawl.

But in fairness to me, we should consider who had what info. The guy in front of me could see far more than I could. He watched Sandro reverse directions, so he knew what was going on. All I saw was Sandro moving off to the right. Moving off the racing surface opposite of the incident is a pretty tried and true method of staying clear of the trouble.

One makes an estimate of the situation based on what you see and predict. One chooses a course and speed to avoid My prediction was wrong. I also failed to consider how much traction I was giving up leaving the track and going on to the wet grass. I screwed up.

#44

Worst part is that you broke your wrist, hate to see that, reminds all of us of the realities of what we do in addition to the pain and incredible inconvenience of it for you

Wasn’t saying your thinking or action was awful, just saying the most conservative option is typically the safest one
Hope you heal quickly and that we get the chance to race with you again soon

#45

[quote=“jlucas” post=74463]Well I had a really long post written and when I hit post I got a “you’ve been logged out” message :frowning:
So here’s the short version.
[/quote]That’s kicked my ass a number of times too. I’ve trained myself to always mark and copy the text of posts it took me a long time to write.

#46

[quote=“harper” post=74476]Worst part is that you broke your wrist, hate to see that, reminds all of us of the realities of what we do in addition to the pain and incredible inconvenience of it for you
[/quote]
[OT]
Mostly it’s just inconvenient. My car’s sitting in the garage pleading for attention but there’s nothing I can do for it until I have 2 hands. I am taking it to a frame shop next week tho. The strut tower seems to have shifted a bit. In a couple weeks if I can’t bear further delay I’ll drag Rich Bratton and Al K over.

I figured that the maddening inconvenience of being one-handed would be nicely counterbalanced by the outpouring of sympathy and attention from all the pretty girls in the area. I’m still waiting on that but I remain eternally optimistic.

The family is sharing the load. Wife fastens my trousers in the morning. There’s no downside in keeping your wife acquainted with how your pants fasten. #2 son puts on my belt. #1 son puts on my socks. #3 snickers and criticizes.
[/OT]
As action hobbies go, we’re in a pretty darn safe one. It doesn’t always seem like that when you’re in the marbles on the outside line of a 100mph turn, but people getting hurt is rare. Wife had misgivings early on but I recounted a few stories from the 25yrs of cycling and triathlons to give her some perspective. Unless a girl had lots of brothers, women just don’t understand that boys need adventure and taking a few lumps is inevitable.

#47

One of the things I have started preaching to my drivers is STAY ON THE ROAD! When you go off track, intentionally or because you are overdriving etc., you give up control of your vehicle, period.

I think guys in slow spec classes (and I’m guilty of this) tend to get casual about offs and using grass as a racing surface. We’re not going that fast and there’s no ground effects to get torn off. But that kind of conduct will eventually lead to bent parts, so I’d rather just see it go away as a part of my region’s racing.

#48

Bottom line, y’all…[color=#ff0000]DON’T HIT…DON’T GET HIT[/color]

#49

Not having instructors for DE2 is one of the most ridiculous things i’ve ever heard. as an instructor i’ve been more ‘on the edge of the seat’ with DE2 drivers than DE1. in DE2, as drivers learn to get more speed, they don’t have the instincts yet to know what to do when things go wrong. I have found myself as an instructor putting a ‘harness’ on their speed until they are skilled enough to handle what’s it’s like over the edge. without an instructor, you might as well give them a blindfold.

" Moving off the racing surface opposite of the incident is a pretty tried and true method of staying clear of the trouble."

i’m baffled by this. It should be a last resort. staying on pavement increases your options. Exhibit A at 1:20: http://vimeo.com/76869914 I slow down until I can make the best decision, and I was only 20 ft behind the car when the spin started. I’m not trying to put you down, I’m just highly recommending if the situation happens again, I wouldn’t go to the grass that early in the situation.

#50

Another thing for y’all to consider. No matter what happens during contact, you are 50% at fault. You were there, period, so own up to your participation in the event. Bottom line, don’t put yourself in the situation to suffer from someone else’s fu.

#51

[quote=“lightningd” post=74491]Not having instructors for DE2 is one of the most ridiculous things i’ve ever heard. as an instructor i’ve been more ‘on the edge of the seat’ with DE2 drivers than DE1. in DE2, as drivers learn to get more speed, they don’t have the instincts yet to know what to do when things go wrong. I have found myself as an instructor putting a ‘harness’ on their speed until they are skilled enough to handle what’s it’s like over the edge. without an instructor, you might as well give them a blindfold.

" Moving off the racing surface opposite of the incident is a pretty tried and true method of staying clear of the trouble."

i’m baffled by this. It should be a last resort. staying on pavement increases your options. Exhibit A at 1:20: http://vimeo.com/76869914 I slow down until I can make the best decision, and I was only 20 ft behind the car when the spin started. I’m not trying to put you down, I’m just highly recommending if the situation happens again, I wouldn’t go to the grass that early in the situation.[/quote]

This is kinda pointless. Sorry you’re baffled. Being in the grass opposite of the incident works pretty well because it puts you a trackwidth away from the incident. Seems clear enough to me. The weakness, of course, is that going in the grass left assumes you know that the ultimate location of the problems will be right. Therein lays the rub.

Yes, I wish I’d handled it differently.

At the time tho I saw him heading across the track to the right. I thought that there was no ambiguity in how this was going to play out. He was sliding right so the only issue that remained was how far he was going to slide right. Therefore going left seemed perfectly safe. Had I paused to consider that maybe his ultimate position wasn’t as sure as I thought it was, then I’d have done differently.

There probably isn’t anything more to be gained by further dissecting this. How about we let it go?

#52

This thread is not unlike an over dramatic Facebook post meant mostly to draw attention but it could very well turn positive.

I see no reason for outrage, rule changes, or penalties based on the incidents lately.
There are varying skill levels within our group but so far I have not seen anyone make a move that was purposely dangerous or particularly idiotic. Room for improvement, yes, but rules to water down what we do is not the direction I want to see us go. We are a large group of equally matched cars, Crap Happens.

I echo everything McKay said about how close we run and the reasons this class is fun.
For every 1 person that drops out over their car being dented, there are 5 more getting involved. If I was more timid or concerned about damage, BMW Club Racing would be a great option and it’s easy enough to apply:

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/NewRacerApplication/NewRacers.aspx

I believe Spec E30 is the best class in the country and close racing is the reason for it. Most of us love how close we run. I don’t want to see anyone get hurt nor do I particularly enjoy spending time or money on repairs. I do however accept that my car may be scratched, dented, or totaled, every time I go on track and its still 100% worth it to me. WHEN it happens, I don’t run around crying to everyone around me about what an idiot the person who hit me was. I look at the video, form my opinion, and go talk/share video with the other driver. We apologize if necessary or at least come to an agreement about what happened. Unless it’s beneficial for others to learn something, then it’s nobody else’s concern.

Ostracizing high school bitching games are worthless as are too many rules and regulations. An opportunity to learn from the unfortunate experiences of others and potentially avoid having to learn the hard way yourself is where the focus should be.

Rather than girling up the series……
I would encourage video review of every significant incident from every region on a public forum or ongoing thread. Hindsight opinions will differ on what could have been, but a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion could be an excellent learning tool for every driver.

What happened? Why did it happen? How could it have been avoided? What have you experienced in a similar situation?

If there happens to be someone who consistently surfaces, then you will either see the real circumstances or the “recklessness” and if necessary they can be confronted.
I have never had an incident where I thought another drivers “recklessness” was the cause but plenty of occasions where I learned something valuable. I don’t believe we have a rampant problem. I believe there’s a story behind every dent. Maybe a reason or maybe an excuse but I also know there’s a difference.

My opinion of the VIR incident:

Ryan could have waited to blend back on to the track but I thought he did so very controlled. It was not as if he wildly came out of the woods back on to the track, he just ran a little wide.

Sandro had no real option other than maybe checking up, in which case he would likely have been collected by the pack behind him. His other choice was running off in the wet grass which is never a good thing. I don’t see it as him being over aggressive or trying to make a hole that wasn’t there. True it appears he didn’t get both feet in early enough during the spin but that’s something I’m sure he took away from the experience.

Ideally, Palacio would have moved a little right to give some room. What we can’t see from the videos is that maybe he couldn’t, either because someone was to his right; he felt the suspension was fully loaded already, or he wanted to make sure Sandro didn’t get through. Once he was turned into the wet grass, there was nothing he could do.

Gress made the decision to drive off track I’m sure for several reasons. #1 I’m betting like me, he was told early on in DEs that when you find yourself in trouble, the thing to do is drive straight off, and #2 He wouldn’t have expected to see Sandro coming back across. It’s unfortunate that his wrist is broken but it doesn’t make the incident any different or anyone more of an ass or over aggressive because of it. My respect for Scott has grown by seeing his positive attitude about this ordeal.

Comment as you wish on how things might have been different and theorize about the choices you would have made. Any of us may be in the exact same situation, and could benefit from having seen this one. I know if I find myself off track which a huge pack behind me I’ll be thinking about these guys.

#53

[quote=“Ranger” post=74493][quote=“lightningd” post=74491]Not having instructors for DE2 is one of the most ridiculous things i’ve ever heard. as an instructor i’ve been more ‘on the edge of the seat’ with DE2 drivers than DE1. in DE2, as drivers learn to get more speed, they don’t have the instincts yet to know what to do when things go wrong. I have found myself as an instructor putting a ‘harness’ on their speed until they are skilled enough to handle what’s it’s like over the edge. without an instructor, you might as well give them a blindfold.

" Moving off the racing surface opposite of the incident is a pretty tried and true method of staying clear of the trouble."

i’m baffled by this. It should be a last resort. staying on pavement increases your options. Exhibit A at 1:20: http://vimeo.com/76869914 I slow down until I can make the best decision, and I was only 20 ft behind the car when the spin started. I’m not trying to put you down, I’m just highly recommending if the situation happens again, I wouldn’t go to the grass that early in the situation.[/quote]

This is kinda pointless. Sorry you’re baffled. Being in the grass opposite of the incident works pretty well because it puts you a trackwidth away from the incident. Seems clear enough to me. The weakness, of course, is that going in the grass left assumes you know that the ultimate location of the problems will be right. Therein lays the rub.

Yes, I wish I’d handled it differently.

At the time tho I saw him heading across the track to the right. I thought that there was no ambiguity in how this was going to play out. He was sliding right so the only issue that remained was how far he was going to slide right. Therefore going left seemed perfectly safe. Had I paused to consider that maybe his ultimate position wasn’t as sure as I thought it was, then I’d have done differently.

There probably isn’t anything more to be gained by further dissecting this. How about we let it go?[/quote]

Ranger, when posting on the internet it’s hard to detect tone and intention. please don’t think i or any of us are bashing you. It’s all friendly. The reason i’m baffled is because i don’t understand where the idea of going off track and eliminating control of you car was an option BEFORE staying on pavement to keep options open. If you have been told or trained or instructed that this is a good option then how many others also think the same thing. A lot of us with years and years of experience disagree with this mindset. In our opinion, this ‘tool’ that’s being handed out is dangerous. of course, posted later was…

it should be, if you know going off is inevitable, go off straight, as to not flip the car. If someone is instructing people to make the decision to go off track as a ‘catch all’ then i think that needs to be fixed.

does anyone else think that they would have made the same move to the grass that ranger did? if so, has anyone (mentor/instructor) told you that that type of maneuver is NOT a last resort?

B)

#54

I have not the first clue what I was told during the DE days. That was a long time ago. I’ve been doing this a while now. In my early years I got obsessed and was doing 4-6 track days/month for a long time. It added up to enough track days that the precise details of what my DE instructors told me in 2006 is a little fuzzy.

I had cars in front of me slowing abruptly. I had a snapshot of Sandro sliding off the track to the right, and I was generally aware of cars behind me. I made a snap decision that the smartest thing to do would be to go left, and in so doing get away from everyone. Because of some bad luck it didn’t work out. Snap decisions are based on experience and limited info. If my luck would have been better I’d be the hero, but no, I’m the turd. If I’d have stayed on the track and braked hard I might have been rear ended. If I’d have braked a bit less hard I might have tboned Sandro depending on what his car did and what I could see. There’s lots of ways it could have gone down.

#55

In the split second decision that Gress was faced with…well I’m following him to the left and into the grass out of harms way. The last thing one would expect is a car rolling backward.

Scott, get well soon.

RP

#56

[quote=“Patton” post=74499]In the split second decision that Gress was faced with…well I’m following him to the left and into the grass out of harms way. The last thing one would expect is a car rolling backward.

Scott, get well soon.

RP[/quote]

Yep, right behind you!

#57

Voluntarily driving offroad in wet grass to avoid an incident with spinning cars going down over 100 feet in front of you? Madness. Concrete and traction are your friend. In my opinion, offroad is something you do with a huge whip of the steering wheel when you’ve tried everything else and a crash is inevitable. Just my thoughts on that subject, to the extent that anyone cares.

#58

Dammit. I hate it when I agree with McSoze. :wink:

#59

Questions about off track driving? You guy’s should have just called and asked me directly :wink:

For some of the newer guys, here’s my resume: I’ve been racing Spec E30 in the Southeast since 2007 and had a total of two (non bump drafting) car to car incidents. Both minor… but did cost me money. While a Spec E30 victory proves elusive, I have been as high as 2nd place and can run in the top 5 (when I run). I’ve run at the front, middle, and back of the pack over the years and believe if you ask anyone who has been wheel to wheel with me through a corner they would have no problem doing it again.

That being said, I also have a reputation of off track excursions… The green & yellow car doesn’t help as it is now adorned with a John Deere sticker, tractor, and license plate. Is grass the fast way around a corner? Absolutely not? Can and should it be used as a means to avoid an incident? Absolutely!!! They’re called escape routes, and any driver at this level should be able to use them to safely take their car off track, through the grass, and re-enter under control.

Here is my $.02 on the incident (since it was asked):

  1. Ryan did not have control of his car when re-entering the track and is responsible for causing the entire sequence of events.
  2. Sandro responded in a very unpredictable during the spin exasperating the situation by forcing other drivers to re-react to the now changed situation.
  3. Gress absolutely made a good call using the escape route available off track left. Hate to see it didn’t turn out better, but think I would have done the same thing giving the same situation/input.

This reminds me of a couple of incidents (both surprisingly from Roebling) to potentially learn from:

  1. This is one of the ones that helped give me the John Deere nickname. I qualified well (3rd?-ish). After the start on the first lap, I slid off track left at the exit of turn two ahead of ~17 more Spec E30s. I stayed off through turn 3 and re-entered in the brake zone of 4. I made the decision to stay off until I felt it I could re-enter safely. Safely wasn’t just me maintaining control of my car, it included how my action would impact the other Spec E30’s. They we’re streaming by two and three cars wide sorting themselves out all the way through turn 3. I felt re-entering sooner would have likely caused an incident similar to this. Did I win the race?, No… I lost quite a few positions off track. But I also didn’t wreck my car (or anyone else’s), and had a fun race working my way back up as far as I could.

  2. Mike Skeen & Damion Moses we’re P1 & P2 for the start of another race. I was farther back in the field. First Lap (again), as I come through Turn 3 with the bulk of the field, Damion (had spun) was sliding to a stop sideways mid-track in the brake zone of turn 4. Evasive maneuvers ensued on track, two wheels off, and two wide through the grass… everyone got out clean and nobody T-boned Damion. Yes positions got shuffled up, but everyone finished the weekend without having to do body work. Damion was in a bad situation, but by reacting in a predictable manner he allowed the rest of the field to adjust safely.

If you pause the Scott’s video right as Sandro slides back onto track and ask “what happens next?”; I would think most (if not all) would predict Sandro continuing that direction until stopping (momentum). The uncertainty (IMO) would be how far right he eventually stops and how many cars use left as the escape route (on and off track).

#60

I guess I just must watch a lot of racing then. I would predict he would do some wild shit and something completely unpredictable. Of course, i would have started slowing down the second I seen someone sliding in the grass at that point in order to give me enough time to see things pan out, and make a better decision. Just this year i’ve seen 5 or so wrecks from cars rolling backwards with the wheels turned. Just watch any Continental race to see some of the stupidest shit ever.

here are some on a quick search

@ 3:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm__88baUyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0cg88alAY

no two feet in at 0:50 and 1:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Difmnz4QR8A

two feet in is more a rarity than anything. i know everyone spends lots of time watching video of how to get that ultimate fast lap, but if you haven’t spent time watching crash videos, you really should. it can save you a dollar or two.

B)