Poor Decisions - Where is the outrage?

#1

As Patton suggests, starting a new thread. I’ve been pondering the same question DeVinney asked a few minutes ago.

I’ve been racing SpecE30 since 2006, and was the SE co-director from 2007-2012 and the level of aggression and poor decision-making has gotten markedly worse in the last two years.

I really am shocked that there isn’t more outrage, both in the paddocks and here on the boards. Peer pressure is all we have to try to reign this in. I wish the Regional Directors would take more concrete steps, but for now, all we have is each other.

How can any of you, in good conscience, suggest to a buddy to come and race in SpecE30, when the chances for serious damage or now even injury are more present than they should be?

This isn’t just about me, but I’ll briefly tell my story. My old #401 was hit severely 4 times in the past several years, and every time by another SpecE30 car. 3 of those times, I was in a braking zone, clearly in front of the car that hit me.

In each case, someone failed to maintain control of their car.

If you allow your car into a situation where you don’t see a clear path to get through without causing an incident, you are making a poor decision. There were two such decisions, by #40 and #32, at the start of last Saturday’s race.

But, those are only the latest examples, which makes them top of mind. As DeVinney pointed out, can anyone remember the last SE weekend that did not feature a SEVERELY crunched race car? I can’t, and I read every posting on this board, whether I’m at the event or not.

I missed most of this year’s events as I spent >$3000 and 5 months of weekends building a new car I shouldn’t have had to build. That killed my budget for the year, and severely impacted my family life. And, now that it’s finished, I am very hesitant to bring it to a NASA event, because I have low confidence it will survive the weekend unscathed.

So, what are the rest of you thinking? I think the royal we, with the results we are achieving, are going to kill the SpecE30 class in this part of the country. And, that’s a damn shame, because the virtue of having people to race with, whether for 1st, 6th, or 12th, is unequaled.

Is this level of damage and personal injury just part of the fun, or is every single one of us willing to re-evaluate how we conduct ourself on and off the track?

#2

Porting this over from the other thread…

[quote=“Steve D” post=74427][quote=“Patton” post=74425]Steve, start a new thread. This info will just be lost here.

Signed, tired of the damages, but I’ve made stupid mistakes too,

Patton[/quote]

OK. Here’s what I posted in the VIR thread.

Hey Spec E30 drivers -

Feel free to dismiss me as a former participant if you’d like, but I gotta say I am really surprised at the lack of outrage on the boards over the “carnage on Saturday”.

Mistakes in this game of ours can be deadly. Over-aggressive moves have REAL consequences.

Just for shits and giggles, I hit the search tab on this site and looked for the key word “damage”. What comes up? SIGNIFICANT damage to cars at:
VIR October
Road Atlanta September & August
Laguna in July
Summit in June
Road Atlanta in June
CMP in May
VIR in March

For chrissakes what the hell is wrong with this class that we aren’t calling people out publicly when they are at fault? From what I saw at a quick glance, ONE of those incidents (Gags at VIR in March) didn’t involve two cars coming together. ONE. In the rain. All others involved cars getting together.

Here’s a new code of honor for SE30: If you wreck someone, pay for their damage. A Porsche guy did that for me at CMP a few years ago. I did it when I busted a guy’s bumper cover at NJMP. We are supposed to be gentleman racers.

Signed,

Disapponted[/quote]

Since I am apparently the only one who will call people out in public, I’ll go ahead and mention that I’m getting back-channel messages. Suffice it to say Ryan’s ram-air intake at Road Atlanta was strike one. Unwise re-entry at VIR was strike two.

Listen guys. Be the same guy with the helmet on that you are in the paddock!![/quote]

#3

Chuck,

You are not alone in your feelings about getting wrecked out in SE30. In NorCal we went through some huge growing pains in 2011 & 2012, with many new racers out of the go-kart ranks, fast, fearless and not used to racing tin-tops. We were crashing cars left and right (remember the DogPile photo from Thunderhill? Of the four cars, mine suffered fatal damage to the frame horns, and I had to build a new car too).

Following the Thunderhill DogPile crash, NASA NorCal Race Directors implemented a set of supplemental rules for our Group (Group A: SE30s and Spec Miatas) designed to reign in the wreckage that was happening every race. These rules really worked to settle the group down, while the newer racers got their race craft skills up. I think of the rules below, the “no moves” rule and the requirement to have a video camera in your car for every on-track session helped the most. To clarify, the “no move” rules took away the one defensive move that we are allowed in road racing. All racers were required to hold their lines into a corner. The supplemental rules are provided below.

[i]Revised Group A Actions
The current amount of contact, aggressive or unaware driving and off-track excursions as a result of over-driving is unacceptable in Group A. NASA NorCal is committed to making the Spec Miata and Spec E30 Series premier racing programs where drivers from inside and outside the group admire the level of competitiveness, cooperation and clean-racing they see in every race. As such, NASA Management, Race Directors and Series Directors believe special actions are necessary to bring the Group A drivers into line with the expectations we all share for these exciting, growing racing series. Based on feedback from the Drivers, Race Directors and Series Directors, we plan to implement the following changes going forward. We are taking an approach of education, communication between drivers and very targeted penalties for the few drivers who cause problems for the rest of the Group. We sincerely hope that all the drivers will support this approach both through their on and off track actions and participation in the process.

  1. All yellow flag rules in effect, CCR and Supplemental Rules, remain in effect as they are today. The Race and Series Directors will occasionally visit flag stations during practice and qualifying to see if drivers are acknowledging flaggers.

  2. We are repealing the blanket “no dent” rule, but are, effective immediately, strictly enforcing the 50/50 rule. This means that all drivers are expected to fix major cosmetic damage to their cars before the next event. Going forward, any driver found at-fault according to the CCR Rules of On-Track Conduct in an incident involving car-to-car contact will be required to repair their own car to 5/5, not 50/50, condition. For the sake of clarity, if you dive-bomb a corner and hit another driver, you cannot simply pound out your fender to 50/50 condition. Rather, you will need to replace the fender, get it painted to match the car and bring the entire car up to “significantly better than 50/50” standards. Your propensity to hit others means you will be held to a different standard for car condition as a deterrent to further contact.

  3. The “no moves” rule will be in effect for Group A. The Race Director will clarify this rule before the next event so there is no ambiguity to its meaning. The intent is to have drivers focus more of their attention to the flags and what’s happening out the windshield instead of reacting to the driver’s moves behind them. We want to encourage more constructive and cooperative passing and less “racing from ahead” to simply hold cars up.

  4. Every Driver’s meeting will be considered mandatory and the Race Director will take roll. The Race Director will decide on escalating penalties for missing meetings. Meetings will be used to review incidents from previous sessions and/or for rules discussions (flag, racing room, passing, blocking, etc.)

  5. Drivers are required to have an in-car camera – they can use the money they’re saving by not doing body work and paint for the no-dent rule. If a driver can’t provide video, then their contact form will be taken with a grain of salt in any incident. Race Officials may request in-car video after any session from any driver for the purpose of finding or reviewing incidents, whether the camera car was involved or not. (Camera’s with SD cards were later made mandatory to make it easier for the RDs to review footage).

  6. Drivers will be required to fill out a contact form for ANY contact other than a bump draft. Failure for any driver to fill out a contact form (assuming video shows contact) will be a DQ and start from back on next race.

  7. An Incident Review Board (IRB) consisting of the Series Directors (Scott Neville, Jim Bucha, Dean Thomas) will review all Group A contact forms and talk to drivers individually and together. They will review the rules together and will discuss all incidents at the next drivers’ meeting. The IRB will pass incidents deemed serious where fault/penalties are appropriate on to the Race Director. IRB members will recuse themselves from review of incidents involving co-drivers, spouses, etc. so there is no loss of objectivity.

  8. We will be strict in punishing and exposing overly aggressive, overly optimistic and unaware driving per the existing CCR Rules of On-Track Conduct.

  9. We will enforce the start rules for flying starts more than we have in the past. There are currently lots of violations that lead to much higher T1 speeds and also more “blender” action in the middle of the pack with drivers in the back getting unfair runs. Start violations include but are not limited to failure to maintain pace-car speed until the green flag is thrown, failure to maintain appropriate spacing between cars and jumping starts. Penalties could be in the form of an in-race black flag for a stop and go and/or post-race review of the driver’s video for rule adherence.

  10. At the Race Director’s discretion, we will have a download session after the Saturday race and/or after the Sunday race if there are any incidents. This is another opportunity to discuss any incidents as a group and learn from them.[/i]

I think getting your group in shape is the largely the responsibility of the event’s Race Director, who can at any time issue Supplemental Rules as was done in NorCal. We ran this way for most of 2012 and part of 2013. In early 2013 we lifted the “no moves” rule and kept the rest intact.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Scott Neville

#4

It’s a give and take out there. I haven’t been in the loop on all of these incidents but many of them have been the result of “squeezing”. This isn’t a Senna documentary, sometimes you’re going to have to conceding racing room (even if you believe it is “yours”) if you don’t want to crash.

This is also amateur racing, by nature a significant portion of the field is lacking experience. That isn’t an insult or an excuse, just a fact. Gotta help each other out by having these conversations when you see something you don’t approve of. I saw something I wasn’t comfortable with last weekend at VIR so I discussed it with the other driver, saw his point of view, expressed my concern, and now we’re both on the same page, we both learned something and I wouldn’t think twice about going wheel to wheel with him again.

Even with all of the above, sometimes, things happen. The catalyst for this thread for example - I wouldn’t blame it all on one guy. In my opinion (which is just that, an opinion) the car that went off track never should have tried to reenter the track so quickly in the middle of traffic. The car in the middle obviously could have slowed to try to avoid threading the needle, and the car on the inside could have moved further to the right anticipating that the car off track might attempt to reenter the track and the car in the middle might need more space. If any one of those drivers gave more room the incident wouldn’t have happened. The second part of the incident however, never should have happened. Scott did everything right by going where the spinning car had already been rather than trying to beat him where he was going - if the spinning car was two feet in Scott’s wrist wouldn’t be broken.

#5

It seems we need to make sure everyone understands some of the basics…like do not reenter the track until you can do so safely…I lost a car at VIR because another driver spun off then rolled back on the track backwards right in front of a pack of cars…Why? Is something missing in the training process?

Al

#6

Training simply provides information. We don’t lack information. We lack consequences.

#7

This discussion may end as quickly as it began.

Perhaps it is nothing more than a numbers game.

Credit to Jim Pantas, he has adopted a poopie board for 2013 and is keeping score. The board is not a secret and I’ll see if I can get him to share the numbers with us.

Gee, as great a racer and guy that we all think that we are, we may be surprised at the results. I’ll try to pull my poopie board data from previous years. What I think we’ll see, like it or not, is that it is a numbers game.

NASA has a rules set in place. We will see if a harsh intrepretaton of that rules set is what is wanted as we move forward to the 2014 season.

RP

#8

maybe its just me , but it seams really reckless and selfish to expect other cars to make room for you after you have gone all 4 off track ?
I have seen too many cars get torn up from that .

to bad if you end up at the back of the pack, in my opinion its the only option .

#9

I don’t recommend sitting back and hoping for the best. NASA regions can not afford to turn away competitors and that is even more true because of the economy. Harsh penalties aren’t handed out because of this.

I do think we should push to get people on board with the amended rules Scott listed above and police those accordingly. However anytime someone has the power to overrule a decision and that person can be financially affected directly things get shady real fast.

With the season wrapping up, now is the time to consider introducing a change for the 2014 season.

Rob

#10

That’s kind of what I think. It’s a spec series, and it’s growing. Some contact will happen.

Our group is great–yes there’s contact but there’s very little “boneheaded” moves happening. All my contact has been at the hands of Spec Miata drivers.

We instituted some of the NorCal rules, including video. Video is great because it takes so much of the debate out of it. Sometimes you think something happens in the heat of the moment, but it turns out you weren’t quite as good as you thought. I run front and rear cams now.

What is the “no moves” rule?

#11

“That killed my budget for the year, and severely impacted my family life.”

In a nutshell, that’s why I quit. I still love racing, and I’ve had fun renting some Chumpcar seats, the upcoming 13 Hour, etc, but I’m having a tough time justifying building or buying a new racecar.

Unfortunately, I’m a bit of a hypocrite in saying all that, as I’ve done my fair share of metal-benders, and I still maintain that it’s better to bang up a few cars than have BMWCCA style “racing”.

I’m not sure what the solution is, like Grace said, it’s a give and take. It has to be if the racing is close, and when both people take - things get bent. I love racing, and this seems like a potential necessary evil, the problem is that given everything Chuck said is true, which it is, it’s not the sport for me at the moment. My wallet and home life can’t afford to be severely impacted at the moment.

#12

[quote=“evanlevine3233” post=74441]“That killed my budget for the year, and severely impacted my family life.”

In a nutshell, that’s why I quit. I still love racing, and I’ve had fun renting some Chumpcar seats, the upcoming 13 Hour, etc, but I’m having a tough time justifying building or buying a new racecar.

Unfortunately, I’m a bit of a hypocrite in saying all that, as I’ve done my fair share of metal-benders, and I still maintain that it’s better to bang up a few cars than have BMWCCA style “racing”.

I’m not sure what the solution is, like Grace said, it’s a give and take. It has to be if the racing is close, and when both people take - things get bent. I love racing, and this seems like a potential necessary evil, the problem is that given everything Chuck said is true, which it is, it’s not the sport for me at the moment. My wallet and home life can’t afford to be severely impacted at the moment.[/quote]
This is an example of what we emphasize when we’re asking NASA to support harsher punishments for ill-advised behavior. Reigning in the more aggressive of us will have a positive affect on our numbers.

#13

There was a looong thread here earlier this year about whether the wheel-to-driver rule should be modified to discourage drivers from moving over on an overlapping car just because the rules allowed it. I think that’s an area where the series could make a positive change without hurting competition.

#14

Look, in 2007-10 we had fields almost as large as we do now, and we had the same mix of experienced and new-to-the-series racers, but what we didn’t have was torn-up cars every single weekend. Back then, most of the worst accidents were out of class (insert favorite Miata insult), but now, it’s SE30-on-SE30 for the most part. It isn’t just a numbers game. Something has changed. I think it is the decision-making, not just the collection of spec cars in close proximity. We’ve had that for years.

I know we can’t eliminate risk, or accidents, but they need to become the exception and not the rule. A set of supplemental rules can help focus on consequences for not changing behaviors, but the end result is that the behavior has to change if our region can continue to support this class.

#15

[quote=“Rob in VA” post=74438]I don’t recommend sitting back and hoping for the best. NASA regions can not afford to turn away competitors and that is even more true because of the economy. Harsh penalties aren’t handed out because of this.
[/quote]Regarding turning away competitors.

Sure, if Chris or Jim tell Racer X not to come next month, they know what that cost them, but what about the Evan Levines and all the others like him who quietly sell their cars and don’t come back? They cost a lot more in the end than parking one or two guys for one or two weekends. If Racer X doesn’t want to clean up his act, send him away for good. That would still be a positive financial move.

There has been a tremendous turnover in SE30 racing in the SE the last few years. Of course, everyone has their reasons, but if only 25% got turned off by the damage or the cost, and they were still here, we’d have an extra 5-10 cars at each event. I really believe that.

#16

I think aggression and the competition is driving us (collectively) to look at lower risk moves. I know I’ve made a few that I shouldn’t have and couple of them have resulted in some minor contact. Those can and should have been avoided. I know in FL we’ve had several of us have contact in brake zones. With the close cars and the close driving level, cars run close and a result there has been front to rear contact several times. No issues of ‘line’ came into play, just people braking 30-50 feet to late or getting caught in a ‘zone’ of staying on the lead car. That said, I’ve been hit three major times this year. Once I gave the line to overtaking car, but there was a loss of control on the other car and I was hit in the front fender. Last weekend at Sebring I was hit in the passenger door turning in as someone lost braking. Again, line wasn’t an issue. Same weekend I was wrecked on a straightaway by a Miata. None of these were intentional, however, I now have a car that may not see the track again.

Line isn’t the main issue. But as some background info, NASA GTS is debating a rule change that may ultimately change in the CCR. GTS is looking to eliminate the 2/3rd width rule and change it to 1 car width. Not sure that will change the on-track incidents but it’s a start. At least it would change the ambiguous 2/3rd rule or expecting a driver to go agricultural to complete the pass.

I do think ‘consequence’ would help change behavior. Knowing besides getting a wrecked car, that a stronger penalty could be assigned, it should/might change behavior.

#17

[quote=“Rob in VA” post=74438]I don’t recommend sitting back and hoping for the best. NASA regions can not afford to turn away competitors and that is even more true because of the economy. Harsh penalties aren’t handed out because of this.
[/quote]

This is a major contributor and I believe plays a big part in penalties not being assigned.

#18

There are a lot of misunderstandings re. the 2/3rds (it’s actually 3/4) rule.

The rule says “IN MOST CASES passee must give passer 3/4”. “In most cases” means that if you cause an incident because you refused to give the other guy a little more than 3/4, it’s going to be your fault. Therefore it’s a mistake to get in the mindset that you are under no obligation to give the other guy a full car’s width. If you give the passer 3/4 of car width and it all works it will be one of those “in most cases” and everyone’s happy. But if you move over on the passer and as a result there is bent sheetmetal, it will be outside of “in most cases” and you should have given him a bit more space.

The object of the rule, and this is one of the things that came out of the Summit thread is not to guide the actions of the passee, but to guide the planning of the passer. So it’s not giving the passee the right to squeeze, it’s telling the passer that their plan for making the pass needs to include making it work with 2 wheels off.

These are good examples where the group does not have a common understanding of the rules. Sadly, they are not gone over in detail in comp school, and the comp school instructors themselves may have conflicting perceptions of what the rules mean. We do not have a body of writing that helps clarify some of the subtlties of rule interpretations that would help guide comp school.

#19

For those interested, here is the thread on the NASA GTS forum: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=107724&sid=99b7e56271112041b9b7b3378e1ffded

#20

[quote=“ctbimmer” post=74426] And, now that it’s finished, I am very hesitant to bring it to a NASA event, because I have low confidence it will survive the weekend unscathed.

[/quote]

And this isn’t just Chuck saying this. This week I’ve talked to other folks who have raced with us, have recently built or restored their cars, and told me specifically that they don’t have the time, money, or inclination to bring their cars into Spec E30 and watch them get destroyed.

The way I see it, it’s either clean up our act or watch the series, and everything that made it fun, evaporate.