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Gasman wrote:
[quote]
I’ll take this as permission granted going forward and have this post serve as warning to get your freaking car legal.[/quote]
Steve, you might want to reread Carter’s point #1. I sense some emotion creeping into your post. You also don’t make it easy for the allegedly illegal car owners to respect point #3. We all have to share the same track, you know?
Chuck, the written word seems more harsh than the spoken word. Please do not read emotion into my post, it isn’t there. I love sharing a track with everyone of my fellow racers. I want to know that I got beat on the track because those who beat me drove better than I did. Not because a rule was ignored to gain an advantage.
Hint: If your headlight backing plate is missing and you have a forced air intake, or modified a headlight backing plate to create more air, that isn’t legal. Now everyone has time to fix it before Saturday.
Carter wrote:
[quote]A few comments…and I think it’s ok to discuss these things on this forum as long as we keep it civilized.
With that said, I’m not going to share the details of the recent VIR mechanical protest, out of respect for the parties directly involved. If somone wants to know the details, they can ask the NASA Officials or the drivers.
I do, however, want to make a few general comments about mechanical protests.
Keep the emotion out of it. In the Comp Schools, we teach new racers to leave emotion out of club racing. We all make bad decisions and bad comments when in an emotional state and that applies to racing and after-race actions. Vic and I were not emotional after our incident. Yes, it was uncomfortable to protest a friend but I thought I had been wronged and wanted to go through the process. Nothing against him personally and I don’t think he took it that way.
Gather as much information as possible, prior to a protest. I have seen protests that were not written correctly and that caused problems.
If someone protests your car, don’t take it personally.
As we get bigger, we will have issues that will require attention. There is no reason that we can’t handle these things in a respectful and reasonable manner.
Carter[/quote]
Good points Carter.
And for what it’s worth, despite my very poor performance at VIR, I had a blast racing with everyone, and I do look forward to racing with you guys in the somewhat-near future.
Chuck, Had an after thought after writing my post above. If you thought there was emotion in my post, others surely thought so too. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to realize that and clear that up before this weekend. The illegal mods I reference above have been done by some of the people I like the most, which makes it very difficult to say something about.
I wanted to weigh in about contact and rules enforcement. I have been less than satisfied with how my incident at VIR in March has been handled. I was hit on the passenger side door while entering Roller Coaster; the contact was hard enough to not only damage several body panels, but knock me off the track completely. Luckily there wasn’t anything there for me to hit and I continued racing. Jimmy and Grumpy, the top racing officals for the NASA MA region ruled this a "racing incident." I respectfully say "Bullshit!" Any contact beyond minor bumping and a little paint swapping is NOT a racing incident, although I do recognize it’s a risk we all assume. When you lose control of your car and cause body damage or change someone’s course (i.e. knock them off the track), it’s a mistake and represents a lapse of good judgment. I’m not saying this makes you a bad person, but it does mean you fucked up. This should be punished swiftly, uniformly, and harshly. Only when everyone is punished equally, or as nearly as possible, will the emotion truly be left out of it. If we allow "gentleman’s agreements" to stand, those who do get penalized inevitably feel singled-out. The consequences of sloppy or aggressive driving are too severe for us to continue on the present course; from the look of the video Vic’s wreck with Johny at Summit could have easily killed him, not just totaled his car.
Sasha
Good post, and good points. From my observations, Grumpy (MA) and Tom (SE) are very different in the way they handle things.
Carter wrote:
[quote]During the All-Hands Meeting at VIR in July, it was explained that contact in several classes was creeping up. Therefore, the NASA Mid Atlantic officials stated that they are now enforcing the Contact Points system. With the Contact Points system in the CCR, any driver in any region can go through the process and can insist that the CCR be upheld, and that Contact Points be issued if/when contact occurs.
I’m planning to race with the Southeast Region at Barber in October and if someone hits me (significant damage, knocks me out of the race, takes a position because of the contact, etc.) and is at fault, we’re filling out forms (I’ll cite which rule was broken) and the officials will make a ruling, including Contact Points.
If I get a nudge/bump/etc. with very little or no damage, he’ll owe me a beer Saturday night.
Sound reasonable?
Carter[/quote]
I think Carter’s POV on this whole subject (both here and in the thread on "rough driving 2008" found in the SouthEast forum) is very reasonable.
I for one would like to see this whole conversation focus more on how we address things moving forward rather than how things have been handled (or not) in the past.
I’d like to see Spec E30 be a series we all enjoy. Not a series we used to race in.
with that said…
Looking forward to seeing everyone at Road Atlanta.
who’s bringing the beer?
Sasha made a good point and Scott Mc summed it up by pointing out that the series is evolving in a positive direction. Hit the print button, and keep Carter Hunt’s point of view as a cornerstone for good judgement and proper perspective.
For the Southeast racers, there were discussions with Cullen and Pantas yesterday and you’ll like hear about stricter CCR enforcementat the Saturday racer’s meeting.
Regards, Robert Patton
Ex36 wrote:
[quote]I wanted to weigh in about contact and rules enforcement. I have been less than satisfied with how my incident at VIR in March has been handled. I was hit on the passenger side door while entering Roller Coaster; the contact was hard enough to not only damage several body panels, but knock me off the track completely. Luckily there wasn’t anything there for me to hit and I continued racing. Jimmy and Grumpy, the top racing officals for the NASA MA region ruled this a "racing incident." I respectfully say "Bullshit!" Any contact beyond minor bumping and a little paint swapping is NOT a racing incident, although I do recognize it’s a risk we all assume. When you lose control of your car and cause body damage or change someone’s course (i.e. knock them off the track), it’s a mistake and represents a lapse of good judgment. I’m not saying this makes you a bad person, but it does mean you fucked up. This should be punished swiftly, uniformly, and harshly. Only when everyone is punished equally, or as nearly as possible, will the emotion truly be left out of it. If we allow "gentleman’s agreements" to stand, those who do get penalized inevitably feel singled-out. The consequences of sloppy or aggressive driving are too severe for us to continue on the present course; from the look of the video Vic’s wreck with Johny at Summit could have easily killed him, not just totaled his car.
Sasha[/quote]
Sasha,
I respectfully disagree. An incident is between the people involved, unless the people involved feel like they want/need to go to NASA via the rules.
If you and I were best friends and you knocked me while racing hard, I would only file protest if you gained points and it was your fault, which I think is the correct thing to do. Not just file protest because an incident was caused. If I bumped you off, but you came back on and caught me, I would give the spot back to you if I thought the incident was my fault. Maybe that is not was some people would do, but I think that in this series, at least the folks on the east coast side, would do the right thing.
While your incident outcome was not what you thought was fair, I think most of the time they (NASA Officials) get things right and try to be as fair as possible.
I think what you should do is write a letter to NASA Officials stating your point of view and how the situation, in your opinion, was not fairly dealt with.
[quote]badboypolar wrote:
Sasha,
I respectfully disagree. An incident is between the people involved, unless the people involved feel like they want/need to go to NASA via the rules. [/quote]
I disagree, because with any of these examples we are talking about people driving like assclowns who endanger other drivers on the track. It involves us all.
Daniel,
Wait until you finish your car and are actually racing. If you and the friend you don’t care about wrecking are the only ones on the track, that’s fine, but that’s not ever the case. Aggressive and sloppy driving does not necessarily just effect the cars immediately involved in the incident; they can collect others.
So, this issue is bigger than just you and your friends. And that’s my point. I am disappointed by how my particular incident was handled (or not handled), but I didn’t write seeking resolution for just me. I wrote because to me it indicates NASA and this series are heading in the wrong direction. Every incident should be taken seriously and action should be taken to assign blame and penalties if it can be done. This should be handled by authorities who have interests larger than the various friendships between racers. They need to keep the viability of the series and the safety of the racers at the forefront.
Sasha
I read this thread for the first time yesterday. I had my own opinions about what happened and who was at fault but figured that I keep them to myself. Leaving those opinions out and after thinking about it a lot over the last 24 hours, I do have an opinion I’d like to share. Simply, this is amatuer racing, period. I see no reason for anyone driving that hard, yeilding no corner, and having such a crash at that point in the season. Last lap of the national championship, maybe. But not in a mid season race. Fortunately only Victor’s wallet was seriously hurt.
Don
Daniel, here is another that is in agreement with Sasha. As the racing has evolved this year we’re finding that this isn’t about you and your buddies tradin paint.
Example: you and your buddy Bill Blaze swap it out. Great fun. Blaze swaps it with Sammy…"Oh, Sammy just a little hard racing, no harm no foul, right ole buddy." Blaze swaps it with Alan…"Oh Alan, no harm no foul.
There comes a time when the situation is too much. But, unless there is a consistant system that is fairly implemented…well the horse is already out of the barn.
Hunt’s point of view is on the money. Good judgement has to be used because not every thing warrants being a "big deal."
Were working on that system for Southeast racers. I’m betting that the same is true for MA.
Regards,Robert Patton
Speaking of side nets…there is a recent discussion of side nets/head restraints on the NASA American Iron forum and one of the posts included this video clip showing what happened to a driver after hitting a concrete wall on a asphalt short oval track. The driver’s seat has a head restraint as well as a shoulder restraint. At first glance his seat system looks to have some decent protection but the video is a real eye opener after he contacts the wall. Here’s the link to the video:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Why_You_Want_A_Right_Side_Net.wmv
those aren’t head restraints - they are merely "supports" to take some load off your neck while going around corners. Unfortunately, they pass the "test" for the new NASA right side head restraint rule…
bruce
sneville44 wrote:
[quote]Speaking of side nets…there is a recent discussion of side nets/head restraints on the NASA American Iron forum and one of the posts included this video clip showing what happened to a driver after hitting a concrete wall on a asphalt short oval track. The driver’s seat has a head restraint as well as a shoulder restraint. At first glance his seat system looks to have some decent protection but the video is a real eye opener after he contacts the wall. Here’s the link to the video:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Why_You_Want_A_Right_Side_Net.wmv[/quote]
leggwork wrote:
[quote]those aren’t head restraints - they are merely "supports" to take some load off your neck while going around corners. Unfortunately, they pass the "test" for the new NASA right side head restraint rule…
bruce
[/quote]
I agree with Bruce that this is a poor example. First of all I have seen that video before and it should be noted that it is about 10 years old from a Canadian Nascar (Maybe Cascar) race. Notice the size of the analog roll bar camera and the fact that guys are driving Luminas and pre-97 Grand Prix. That particular seat is not current technology and I sure would hope the current head supports are more supportive. The violence of a relatively harmless looking crash is amazing though.
At the end of the day, to be as safe as possible we should probably all have modern head restraining seats, side nets, and Hans devices. Oh, and drive within resaon :dry:
Don
I didn’t mean to imply that is wasn’t a good example of what not to do - I have actually seen local racers add those type of supports to their kirkey and ultrashield seats to meet the letter of the new law - they are usually of the camp that thinks they’re not necessary anyway …
thanks,
bruce
You guys are right…the video is dated but what impressed me was the effect on the driver for what looked like a relatively minor hit on the wall. At the very least the video is a good reminder as to the kinds of forces that we have the potential to experience as racers.