Install your side nets!

#21

Steve, you are fishing for red herrings by asking if "immediately one should go to the pit lane." area.Use good judgement.

The question that has no answer is the one that allows for "consentual contact" that is reported and agreed upon with no points assessed, or ALL contact that is reported with points being assessed.

I read Catrer’s explanation of the rules and it is as clear as mud. Carter and I have discussed the mud. I really don’t want to start mud slinging.

I can only offer my opinion: It would be that for the Southeast that all contact is reported and points assessed.Total them up for Southeast racers…You’ve got 1; Damion has 1; Marshall has 3; Al taylor has 1.

I’ve got 1…not really, it ocurred at MA and it was consentual contact.

Now that I’ve sturred up the mud, realize that I am NOT the SE spec e30 administrator, nor am I the SE race director, nor am I the SE director of operations.

Opinions are like armpits: everyone has them and some of them stink.My stinky one has been submitted.

So, what is your opinion as we try to learn from the MA and move to the 2008 season.

Regards, Robert Patton

#22

Gasman wrote:

[quote]
Carter, I completely agree. Let me ask you to interpret section 6.9 of the NASA CCR (Body Contact) "Body contact cannot and WILL NOT be tolerated. Anyone involved in body contact must report immediately to the head of pit lane. Harsh penalties will be imposed, including but not limited to, permanent ejection from NASA.

Should Vic have reported immdiately to pit lane, or continued racing?[/quote]

I hope not! That’s why I left PCA. A metal-metal incident of ANY kind required you to stop racing and report to the pit lane, thus ending your race.

I was leading a 90 minute enduro at the 80 min mark when a competitor started closing in. He started harrassing me and got me to spin. (stated afterwards) - "I immediately thought, my chance to pass" and so instead of braking, he thought that I would spin off the track and he started for the inside. I did a complete 360 and kept rolling track center and he hit me from behind. So lightly, that, if it were not for the protruding tow-hook, there would not have been any damage.

We were subsequently black flagged for contact and our race ended. I led about 70% of the race and came away with a DNF.

Post-race, I was found at fault for "causing a racing incident" even though my competitor told me that he didn’t go for the brakes but rather made an assumption about where my car was headed and tried to hurry the pass. I appealed, which is a total waste of time in PCA and was put on 13 mos probation. 3 mos later, at VIR in the wet, I went off and hit a tire wall. That was invoked the other 13 and I was out of PCA. I will never return.

I agree that penalties need to administered to try to keep some semblance of order but I sure hope they don’t carry it that far.

#23

Robert, Rules are rules. How do you decide which ones should be enforced and which ones can be interpreted as we go. 6.9 is very clear to me and needs no interpretation. It doesn’t say anything about contact being consensual, it says it won’t be tolerated.

#24

Steve,

Step away from the computer…everything is gonna be OK…

BTW: When did the old folks home get "innernet" access anyway? Don’t you have a checkers tournament you need to be practicing for?:wink:

#25

Gasman wrote:

well, hopefully all the rules will be enforced and hopefully the rules for competition will be used for racers and the hpde rules for hpde participants…6.9 is an HPDE rule…

#26

All righty then, let’s be technically correct.Section 6.9 is under "HPDE Course Conduct" and has nothing to do with racing.

Steve’s incedent was a single car into the guardrail. No points would have been assessed.I stand corrected.

However, Section 27.4.1 and 27.12 have to do with points assessment and points keeping.

We are out-to-lunch on points keeping in the Southeast, and if we choose to remain out-to lunch, then so be it. Ain’t nobody keepin’ score…

We have learned that you can’t start scorekeeping in the middle of the season.

Should we continue in this manner for 2008?

Regards, Robert Patton

P.S. did I mention that this was a thread hi-jack? Southeast racers please look to the Southeas boad for further discussion. Thanks, Robert

#27

dmwhite wrote:

[quote]Gasman wrote:

well, hopefully all the rules will be enforced and hopefully the rules for competition will be used for racers and the hpde rules for hpde participants…6.9 is an HPDE rule…[/quote]

Well Otay…I see that now. When you get my age, the vision is the first thing to go. :wink:

#28

During the All-Hands Meeting at VIR in July, it was explained that contact in several classes was creeping up. Therefore, the NASA Mid Atlantic officials stated that they are now enforcing the Contact Points system. With the Contact Points system in the CCR, any driver in any region can go through the process and can insist that the CCR be upheld, and that Contact Points be issued if/when contact occurs.

I’m planning to race with the Southeast Region at Barber in October and if someone hits me (significant damage, knocks me out of the race, takes a position because of the contact, etc.) and is at fault, we’re filling out forms (I’ll cite which rule was broken) and the officials will make a ruling, including Contact Points.

If I get a nudge/bump/etc. with very little or no damage, he’ll owe me a beer Saturday night.

:wink:

Sound reasonable?

Carter

#29

Yes, very reasonable…4.8 is a silly rule anyway. :wink:

#30

It’s all about WHO you hit in case you haven’t figured it out.

Case and point:
Jon and I race hard - Jon taps me, and I go into the wall. My next 2 seasons are done as I rebuild, but I recognize that it wasn’t intentional, and I could certainly see myself in his shoes. I have been punted this year by Chris, Jens and Jonny - all resulting in damage, and all causing loss of position (and in one case loss of racecar). The only penalties for all 3 incidents was a reposition for Chris (we re-swapped spots)

At VIR - I tapped Carter - by his latest interpretation of the rules in this thread, he hadn’t completed the pass - I was recovering from a very late turn-in, and slid into him. The rules would appear to favor me, but I fully recognize that it was my fault. The tap was minor in my mind. I was unlucky in that it crinkled his rear fender and pinched his tire so he DNF’d. An inch more in either direction and we continue racing. The result, I am DQ’d - a result which I acceped without protest.

Looking at the penalties - so much of it is subjective, and depends on WHO you hit. And it certainly is good to be the king. I wish the whole process could be handled by the officials (corner workers included) but it’s not. Lesson learned, expensively.

Sorry for the rant - it’s hard to not get pissed. This season has really ended for me on a sour note…don’t even get me started on protests and illegal cars…

#31

victorhall wrote:

Please don’t ruin my fantasy that all of our cars are legal… I was enjoying it (thinking SE30 is a cut above).

#32

There’s no question that when people are involved, any justice system isn’t going to be perfect. However, we do have a set of rules and procedures and NASA (specifically NASA Mid Atlantic in our situation) is making efforts to deal with contact issues.

Vic is correct in that certain drivers sometimes have an unwritten understanding between them that certain types of contact are acceptable. Sometimes that contact can ratchet-up and a total loss crash can occur. Sometimes a wrinkled fender is as far as it gets.

In my incident with Vic, it is true that I had not completed the pass but it is also true that I was staying to the right when Vic dropped his left rear tire off the left side of the track and veered (somewhat out of control) back across the track to the right and into my car. My video shows that I even swerved further right to try to avoid the contact. And to say that it was a "tap" is inaccurate. The loud "bang" is heard on the video and my car got shoved sideways. The scraping sound of the new tire getting ruined can also be heard in the video, despite the engine noise.

In the paddock, I was expecting to see a crushed quarter panel but much to my surprise, and thankfully, it wasn’t as bad as I had imagined. But with the tire and bodywork, it will cost several hundred dollars to get back to where I was, prior to the hit. A DQ wasn’t an unreasonable outcome from the NASA Officials, especially considering that the contact had knocked me out of the race.

And if anyone is involved in contact that you don’t want or like, I strongly encourage that you go through the CCR process. It’s not a perfect process but I am confident that it will work correctly, when used correctly, most of the time.

Carter

#33

mrussell wrote:

[quote]victorhall wrote:

Please don’t ruin my fantasy that all of our cars are legal… I was enjoying it (thinking SE30 is a cut above).[/quote]

Matt:

Overall, I do think that our cars are mostly legal, regarding performance.

On the dyno at VIR, we did have a couple of cars that were clearly stronger than the rest of the field. As we move forward, cars that pull numbers significantly above everyone else will be looked at more closely and will be penalized when illegal mods are found.

However, we’re still working on the specific procedures.

Carter

#34

Vic, Please go on…what could I do to get you started?

#35

Carter - I agreed that the penalty matched the offense. But had I hit anyone else in the field, I seriously doubt that the penalty would have been as harsh. Nothing against you - you followed the rules to the letter of the law.

Steve,
I generally agree with Carter that most of the front running cars are legal, and I think that all the victories this year have been earned by solid driving. I did my fair share of running up front and never felt like I was being pulled or out-cornered because of a mechanical advantage.

However, at VIR on Saturday, I protested 2 cars which were illegal, and the process was painful. The protest would have actually hurt me in the points standings had the offenders been DQ’d, but I still followed through. After going through the process with the officials, I certainly questioned whether it’s worth it in the future. I ended up just dropping the protest - for personal reasons, or whatever you wanna call it. For what it’s worth, the illegal cars were "fixed" for the Sunday race.

-Vic

#36

victorhall wrote:

[quote]
At VIR - I tapped Carter - by his latest interpretation of the rules in this thread, he hadn’t completed the pass - I was recovering from a very late turn-in, and slid into him. The rules would appear to favor me, but I fully recognize that it was my fault… [/quote]

Vic- Understand your frustration and have no background to challenge most of your statements. However, loss of car control cleary transitions the fault your way. Completed pass or not, losing control of your car and hitting a competitor can’t be justified under the "safe pass" language.

I can say one thing for sure, in 4 seasons of '44Cup, the driver’s within the series did not exhibit this type of angst against one another, at least not on the forums. This is a little disheartening for me as someone who switched series.

#37

victorhall wrote:

[quote]

Steve,
I generally agree with Carter that most of the front running cars are legal, and I think that all the victories this year have been earned by solid driving. I did my fair share of running up front and never felt like I was being pulled or out-cornered because of a mechanical advantage.

However, at VIR on Saturday, I protested 2 cars which were illegal, and the process was painful. The protest would have actually hurt me in the points standings had the offenders been DQ’d, but I still followed through. After going through the process with the officials, I certainly questioned whether it’s worth it in the future. I ended up just dropping the protest - for personal reasons, or whatever you wanna call it. For what it’s worth, the illegal cars were "fixed" for the Sunday race.

-Vic[/quote]

This bothers me. If you felt the need to protest, and I don’t care how small of an infraction it was it should be taken seriously and handled according to the rules. This should not be a painful process and should be applauded for having the balls to say something about it. If I see something I don’t like I will personally ask that racer about the illegal mod. At that point if he/she doesn’t feel the need to fix it protest them. Care to share any specifics on how the process went down Vic?

#38

Damion - feel free to hit me up offline, or catch me up at Summit (I should be crewing for my salazar brethren). A public internet forum isn’t the right place to discuss any unsubstantiated legality claims.

I would like to stress my earlier point that, in my opinion, finishing positions this year has been determined by driver skill and not mechanical advantage.

-Vic

#39

A few comments…and I think it’s ok to discuss these things on this forum as long as we keep it civilized.

With that said, I’m not going to share the details of the recent VIR mechanical protest, out of respect for the parties directly involved. If somone wants to know the details, they can ask the NASA Officials or the drivers.

I do, however, want to make a few general comments about mechanical protests.

  1. Keep the emotion out of it. In the Comp Schools, we teach new racers to leave emotion out of club racing. We all make bad decisions and bad comments when in an emotional state and that applies to racing and after-race actions. Vic and I were not emotional after our incident. Yes, it was uncomfortable to protest a friend but I thought I had been wronged and wanted to go through the process. Nothing against him personally and I don’t think he took it that way.

  2. Gather as much information as possible, prior to a protest. I have seen protests that were not written correctly and that caused problems.

  3. If someone protests your car, don’t take it personally.

As we get bigger, we will have issues that will require attention. There is no reason that we can’t handle these things in a respectful and reasonable manner.

Carter

#40

Carter wrote:

[quote]

  1. If someone protests your car, don’t take it personally.

As we get bigger, we will have issues that will require attention. There is no reason that we can’t handle these things in a respectful and reasonable manner.

Carter[/quote]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’ve waited for this for a year. I’ll take this as permission granted going forward and have this post serve as warning to get your freaking car legal. (not your car Carter but those of you who know your car is a rule bent out of shape.) :wink: