Exhaust System Test Results


#1

Ah…we don’t have any?

The rules group is steadfast in their move to have 70-80% of the racers change their exhaust.

I am steadfast in representing those that do not want to change.

Is there data to enlighten both parties?

I understand that there was before/after test with the single and the extra backpressure was beneficial.

My test with duals showed a small increase with the added backpressure of the glasspacks.

Where is the single versus dual test?

Send me the parts and I’ll do the test at Balanced Performance. They are inexpensive when working with NASA folks.
I’ll foot the tab for the test.

I don’t know why this wasn’t thought of before. I’m rather embarrassed by my childish behavior.

It is a great opportunity to understand if there is a difference.

Three ways it could play-out.
1.Single makes more power. Who would not want to use the single. Existing racers would have the option to move up.
2.No difference. No one is forced to change.
3.Dual makes more power. I’ll shut-up and move to the required system.

Going into the test the rules group can define what "more" is in terms of a percentage.

What say you, the Spec E30 audience?

Regards, Robert Patton


#2

Even though it seems as though Carter has made up his mind on this I would love to see some actual data, especially if you are going to pay for that data:P


#3

I’m still trying to figure this out. But it seems to me that if 70-80% of the racers have the double setup (and all the cars I can remember looking at do) then -

  1. If performance doesn’t matter racing does,
    and
  2. The goal is to create a spec exhaust,

Then it seems to me having the 20-30% modify their’s makes more sense? Since it seems, at least in the SE, we pretty much have a defacto spec system.

However to Daimon’s point if Robert is buying the drinks, err data lets see how it shakes out.


#4

Damion, I’ll spend more to test this stuff than it will cost to retrofit all three of my cars.But,it appears to me that the rule change is more "because I said so,"
than data.

That ain’t right.

Regards, Robert Patton


#5

Robert Patton wrote:

[quote]Damion, I’ll spend more to test this stuff than it will cost to retrofit all three of my cars.But,it appears to me that the rule change is more "because I said so,"
that data.

That ain’t right.

Regards, Robert Patton[/quote]

I was just about to make the same comment about spending more to test the various systems than to make your car compliant to the "new" spec exhaust.

I understand your position that if there is no competitive advantage to be gained by one exhaust vs. another then why regulate it. In my opinion this testing should have been done prior to deciding that a spec exhaust is necessary.

This issue is more about rules consistency than the actual need to change exhaust setups. It is all pretty silly if you ask me. I have yet to hear any racer support the decision for a change yet the change seems imminent.

I’ll keep quiet about this from this point on. Like I said before I doubt anyone will protest my 10th place finish if I don’t have the spec exhaust (except for JP :woohoo: )


#6

Robert, I’m 100% behind you. If you get some quality data, it would be the first that we’ve seen on the boards. This is really starting to feel way too much like BMWCCA.
sigh
-Vic


#7

Victor Hall wrote:

[quote]Robert, I’m 100% behind you. If you get some quality data, it would be the first that we’ve seen on the boards. This is really starting to feel way too much like BMWCCA.
sigh
-Vic[/quote]

Right on the head. Stuff like this is the reason I no longer have a BMWCCA license. And this seems to be a hot button issue that is leading us right down the same road.

jim brought up a valid point, if 70% are already running similar setup why not make the 30% change to the common setup.

maybe I wil change my mind when and If there is some data.

Also, were the regional directors for even asked for their opinion on this matter? If not, what is the purpose of having one?


#8

I’m pretty sure Jon Allen’s car had a single exhaust from what I can remember and his car had 163 ft/tq at the wheels. Maybe the exhaust was part of the equation? Who knows only he can tell us :P. Regardless of test results I’m still for a spec exhaust either way. I know I’ll be doing some testing on the dyno if there is no spec exhaust and I’m guessing the majority of the people on here (who can’t even afford another exhaust system) are not going to be doing that. The reason a lot of us like this series is because its spec. Leaving things as variable as the exhaust open is a bad idea imho. In hinesight it should have been spec’d from the beginning, just like the bumpers that is now becoming a problem. I would have spec’d everything, including the sway bars. Just my 2 cents.


#9

Robert Patton wrote:

[quote]
1.Single makes more power. Who would not want to use the single. Existing racers would have the option to move up.
2.No difference. No one is forced to change.
3.Dual makes more power. I’ll shut-up and move to the required system.[/quote]

Robert, I like your thinking here. I think this is the logical process that this issue needs to go through before mandating the system, especially when so many people who have faithfully followed the rules will be affected financially, as well as inconvenienced by time.

Let me know when you plan to head up there. I’d like to dyno my car as well to get a baseline of where it is currently at. Maybe if more ATL racers want to dyno their cars we can collectively offset some of the data acquisition costs (group discount on the dyno)? Just a thought…

I’m also baffled by decision to move to a single exhaust when using Jim Robinson’s logic.


#10

Wonderfully stated gentlemen. Thanks for writing what I’ve been thinking. I get all too emotional when I start to read these boards and probably come across as less than diplomatic.
-Vic


#11

I don’t pretend to understand the logic behind behind the choice of a single vs dual setup. But one consideration might have been cost of fabrication. Less labor and materials are required to build a single tube setup. And if the spec exhaust is going to be a custom system, not using COTS, it would make sense to use the cheaper option.

Does it matter which exhaust set up makes more power? I’ve yet to meet someone that wouldn’t want more power, but in a Spec series it is more important that no one has an unfair competitive advantage. A spec exhaust will help in that regard.


#12

Jim Levie wrote:

[quote]

Does it matter which exhaust set up makes more power? I’ve yet to meet someone that wouldn’t want more power, but in a Spec series it is more important that no one has an unfair competitive advantage. A spec exhaust will help in that regard.[/quote]

Exactly. That is what really matters in the end, doesn’t it?


#13

Not that I like the idea of changing my exhaust that originally cost me $250 to build in April but I do like the idea of specing the system. I think it should all come from one source as well. I don’t like the idea of a monopoly but if the lengths and bends are spelled out can still get mandrel bent pipe and have a better flowing system. I don’t want to spend the money again but I also want anything performace related to be speced. There is power to be made in the exhaust. It just take dyno time to find it.

Michael


#14

Spec suppliers are a bad idea. Especially for something extremely custom like this will be. I would be very angry if I had to pay money for something that is lesser quality than something I can build myself. Many others on here will have the same view I’m sure.

To be ‘affordable’ for most of the current racers, it’d have to be non stainless, mandrel bent etc. Plus shipping costs etc. I can build something better myself in an afternoon. I don’t care about where the bends are either. Just the collector, a high quality peice will make the difference. You guys may not realize it but Spec E30 people as a whole are pretty frugal racers. I see it because I talk to racers everyday, they’ll find a cheaper way to get a decent part.

Is anybody interested in me getting a nice collector produced for the 325’s?


#15

I gotta say I think we are spinning our wheels, because I believe exhaust system config can barely affect torque on the M20. The M20 is limited by the air you can get in, meaning the flapper-door air meter. That’s the bottleneck on horsepower, based on everything I’ve ever learned and read about the M20 and M30. I drive a SpecE30 4dr with stock exhaust including catalytic, and the car is not even down to Spec weight, but I almost never feel down on power compared to the other racers. I generally don’t get out-pulled down the straights because of my exhaust. My motor has good compression at 170,000 miles (knocking on wood), but is nothing special.

I guess my point is that we shouldn’t get too convinced of the notion that an exhaust system could make or break your results at year-end. I don’t believe it can.


#16

As I have said many times before…the only way to have a "spec" exhast is to have one person make all the systems…sorry but that is the fact. having 10 different people with 10 different machines make the exhast for a "spec" will still yeild different numbers on the Dyno. I can see where folks want to keep all the variables out of a spec series, but I also thought one of the goals here was to keep cost low…

Al


#17

Wow, been away from the forum for a bit. So it seems there are 2 scenarios here…1) people who recently did their exhaust based on some rules spec and 2) those who have a 2 pipe config.

Since this is a dictatorship, and that’s good, why not just say that one can run either a single pipe or a twin pipe and spec the pipe size/thickness, where it can be added, and any other seemingly important design feature. Then if someone gets creative with a bend location or similar tell’em no no, improve the wording and they pay the price by having to redo it. Then only those pushing it are paying any price vs everyone else - and it’s not about the the actual dollar amount. Doesn’t seem like it will take long for people to re-embrace the mantra of "no tinkering."

Every series has the same problem: eventually those who are seeking will find the loophole. Solution is to train people to think of NOT finding the loophole. One way to do this is by immediately and swiftly punishing those who do. That is a deterrant to those who think about doing it.

Just more thoughts to an exhausting topic. (Had to throw a pun in there)

Cheers.


#18

Exhaust System Test Results

Ah…we don’t have any?

I’ll repost the findings that I had on the 911 car.

Two pipes with no glasspacks:137.2hp,141.0tq

Two pipes with glasspack baffles loud:138.8,tq143.8

Two pipes with glasspacks quiet,139.9hp, 144.9tq.

The third car got the benefit of more backpressure with the glasspacks turned in and quiet.
For the minimal amount of difference, the other two cars still have the glasspacks loud.

As Michael Davidson posted somewhere they saw an increase insome restriction/backpressure on a single system.The numbers ,please…

Where is the data comparing two pipes to one that forces 70-80% of this audience to change???

Here is a novel idea.I’d much prefer to spend the monies (remember it is no longer all about the money) that it would take to change this exhaust system
to allow the rules group of one person the ability to check this stuff out before it becomes gospel.I’ve already volunteered (see post one of this epic) and not had a reply.

With data we could understand that there is or is not something behind the curtain of OZ.It is my thought–I don’t have any data on the one pipe system-- that it doesn’t make a hill-of-beans difference.The proof is in the data.

And so it does make a difference…Show us the data and give the racers the option to move up to the hot ticket exhaust.Don’t force it on the 70-80% of the racers that built their cars to spec.

I hope the Peanut Gallery of racers has been entertained by reading this 'cause there isn’t anyone of authority reading it.

Regards, Robert (show me the data) Patton


#19

i’m with al and patton on this one, my exhaust was done in the spring (2 pipes, 2 glasspacks) based on what i saw at the track and my interpretation of the rules. some say it’s not about the money, i say it’s about both the money AND the principal. just my 8 cents (adjusted for inflation and fuel costs :wink: ).
oh and here’s a thought, if we want make it real interesting, have everyone throw their keys in a hat and draw for each others cars!:woohoo: that could be fun!
don, #22
SCHWARZER SONNENSHEIN.


#20

Testing existing exhaust systems is nice…but the data value is pretty low regarding the future and how others will continue to spend more and more money on the dyno (as Simon mentioned) to get as much from their car as possible.

Several regions (from a Spec E30 perspective) are still in the "I just want to race with my pals and drink a beer" (or a frozen margarita which was very good at Barber) stage. And that’s great. We were there too. At Barber, other racers in other classes have told me how great it was to see several of us having supper together that Saturday night.

However, soon, someone is going to build a car in your region and will feel that, "I’m not here to make friends, I’m here to win races." He’ll go paddock off by himself, he won’t want to go to supper Saturday night with his racing pals and will show you guys his tail lights on the track. I’ll call him "Racer X."

Racer X will also spend whatever it takes to get the absolute most out of his car and many of you guys won’t have a chance. Carlton and I went to Barber last month and while we had never been there before, we finished third and second, respectively, in a field of 14 cars. Was that because of our outstanding racing ability (like Mike Skeen who won)? I’d like to think so…but truthfully, our cars had a lot to do with it. And if we can do so well in a field of several good, solid racers, this shows that small differences in a car’s performance can make a significant difference in the race results.

While Robert saw small changes in the systems he dyno’d, he wasn’t able to compare them to Racer X’s highly-tuned, hours-and-hours on the dyno legal exhaust system. From what has been explained to me by many, many, experienced racers, both amateur and pro and over the last several months, if this could be done, Robert would see a significant difference in the performance of his systems, and the future Racer X’s system.

In the Mid Atlantic, arguably the most competitive region, Spec E30 racers are spending about $5,000.00 on a legal engine rebuild, for about 9 hp. Steve Kapuschanski spent about $20.00 on an exhaust tip and got 3 hp and 4 pound-feet of torque on the dyno at the National Championship last year.

How can you not see where this will go? How can you not see that the cost of racing will go up, and up, and up, if we don’t take action now and spend a few bucks to stop the high-dollar exhaust development cycle?

I have been told that this happened in Spec Miata, regarding exhausts. And it will happen here too if we don’t adopt a spec exhaust, made by one vendor. I am working on this right now.

Bryan Cohn, the NASA National Competition Director told me that he has received many emails on this subject, many of which have been against it I’m sure. He and I will discuss it on the telephone Friday.

If those detractors convince him to change his mind, and to go against the suggestions and support of so many who know the racing business so that he does not approve the Rules package that I submit, you will regret it.

No, you won’t regret it by anything that I will do, because I won’t do anything to harm anyone in Spec E30, despite the fact that Spec E30 has been threatened recently.

The way you’ll regret it is when drivers start spending thousands (and Simon and I, and many others I’m sure, will spend thousands) on developing the very best legal exhaust system, and you will drop farther and farther back in the results. Or, you’ll be forced to also spend thousands to try to develop your own system that gains about 8 hp, which is what I have been told can be gained if enough money is thrown at it.

Do you really prefer this, to spending $150.00 on a spec exhaust?

Some feel that a spec exhaust isn’t needed because we will have a maximum hp and torque program. However, we aren’t sure if that program will work (it’s a trail program), because of the many variables. Plus the great majority of Spec E30 cars will rarely be dyno’d at the track.

We know for sure that a spec exhaust will remove a significant variable, regardless of how the maximum hp and torque program works out.

In the Mid Atlantic Region, we have had drivers spend days on the track testing different oil in their Bilsteins (this is being addressed in the Rules), testing 14" Toyos vs 15" Toyos because of the slight size/gearing differences, testing different custom antiroll bar lengths, and looking for every little loophole in the Rules. I know this because they have told me.

And they support the spec exhaust rule because they know what it costs to develop different components on a racecar.

When I initially announced that we will have a spec exhaust, some felt that there wasn’t enough discussion on the subject, and that their feelings were hurt. I did a brief search here and found discussions from February.

Others thought about it in a calm and rational way and feel that it’s a cheap way (about $150.00 to save thousands) to cut out one part of the upward spiral of costs that damage a series like Spec E30.

I, and many others, do believe that this is a good move considering the future, because it will save us all alot of money by removing one costly development cycle that will happen if we don’t have a spec exhaust.

Yes, early-on, I probably should have explained the fact that this expensive development cycle will occur if a spec exhaust is not adopted and that I have spent hours and hours on the telephone and online with some heavy-hitters in racing who support a spec exhaust for Spec E30.

If you think this is a good idea, I ask you to email Bryan Cohn and voice your support to help eliminate expensive exhaust development costs.

I will post the results of my phone conversation with Bryan, tomorrow.

Carter