 |
|
Carter, Personally I understand the point and support that you are doing the right thing for the series into the future.
I fear the one vendor solution because a monopoly increases costs. Please cap the price with the chosen vendor. If the vendor balks, pick a new one. Or cap the potential price increase at the rate of inflation or some other index.
I will be sending my support to Bryan.
A well written explanation. Thank you, Carter.
He is absolutely right. The ‘debate’ seems to stem from the belief of many that there may never be a Racer X who bothers to ‘waste’ his time and money developing the Super Racing Exhaust. Will SE30 ever reach the heights of popularity of SM? Probably not. I’d rather hope it doesn’t. But you can bet dollars to donuts that, at some point, some egomaniac with more money than he knows what to do with will enter this class and try to outspend the rest of us in any way possible. That day always comes, no matter what you’re racing.
To those who have spent money on systems already, I empathize with the annoyance of having to replace your system. The real problem isn’t the rules change, but that this should have been written into the rules from the beginning. It wasn’t. That train has left the station. We need to move past it.
Exhaust systems don’t last forever. At some point you’d have to replace all or part of it anyway. As I said before, you should have little trouble selling your old system to some street racer kid with an E30 who just wants it to make some more noise. You won’t be out that much. I’m the biggest tightwad there is, and even I can grasp the rationale of doing this.
I haven’t even turned a wheel in SpecE30 yet (car just purchased) but I can tell you all the commitment of this group’s leadership to maintain costs is one of the things that attracted me to SpecE30 in the first place! Spec Miata was my main other consideration and the costs there are getting ridiculous. I’ve been racing 6+ years (SSC, SSB, T2, ITA, H1, ITS) so I’ve seen what development can cost and what people can do in a Showroom Stock class where you shouldn’t be doing anything!
I 100% agree with a spec exhaust. I don’t even know what’s on the car we bought, picking it up next weekend.
I also support a spec intake (even if it’s stock).
I also agree with a max camber allowed, so we don’t get into tweaking the body or suspension components like in SM.
I don’t know how the dyno spec thing is going to work but I’m glad to see something being tried to limit engine development.
If we as a SpecE30 community proactively assume the role of Racer-X and jointly develop that highly tuned exhaust system and then quantify by the dyno exactly what the possible performance gains are, then the logic behind any decision regarding a spec exhaust becomes solid. I believe that any decision prior to that will be made because we are afraid of what we don’t know. Doing this with open communication and complete sharing of the test scenarios and the results along with publishing the opinions of the experts in the racing business regarding THE RESULTS will prove whether or not this idea is imperative to preserving the SpecE30 philosophy.
my .02,
Steven
Yes, we all agree that a spec exhaust system from this point forward.Absolutely no arguement from me on this point.
Carter needs to be careful in his wording and add a disclaimer that allows for the racer to change the muffler "based on local noise ordinaces that might be in effect in your area." Logic would dictate that noone would protest the whooshmobile.
For all of the non racer x guys that currently exist–it certainy seems that a a compromise could be reached that would allow the their current set-ups to not have to be replaced. Paint a yellow stripe on the components…who couldn’t see that the good-ole-boy had a new shiny, tuned muffler bearing installed on his car as he moved to become the next racer x. Regardless, would not the evolution of the HP and Torque rules negate the hot racer x exhaust set-up?
The way I see it, we all get to change the exhaust system based on the witch hunt for racer x? Witch hunt…well, why don’t those that believe the racer x exhaust is best adopt that system. Other racers and racers that are new to the series can then laugh at the good-ole boys that like less power.
What is the time lag between "all new exhaust for everyone" and the maximum numbers? Can a compromise not be reached?
For the racer x types—The disparity did not come from an exhaust system.Of course, I have no data to back up this statement.
I think it is fair to say that we agree to disagree.
My naivety on the politics of rules, enforcement and the good of the series has not been beneficial for the spirit of the race group.It should not have played out on this forum. My apologies. As Carter and Bryan discuss and adopt the '08 rules, I’ll let it be.
Respectfully, Robert Patton
And I’d submit that the rule should allow for the preservation of the catalytic converters. While most folks trailer their car and don’t have it registered, the proposed spec exhaust (as I understand it) would prevent registering the car in a state that does inspection and emissions testing. That would only affect a small fraction of the Spec E30 population, but it would affect those folks much more than than anyone else.
I hope to be able to trailer the car next year, but that’s not a certainty and it depends on acquiring a tow vehicle & trailer and finding somewhere to store a trailer (the real biggie). Being in Alabama I don’t have to pass an inspection, but there’s no way a glass-pack muffler is gonna cut it. Right now the only way I could do a spec exhaust is to change it at the track… Not only is that going to be a fair bit of work, but it presents a sizable logistical challenge in getting the exhaust to the track.
All:
I spoke with Bryan this afternoon and he agrees that we will move forward on the spec exhaust that granted, should have been written in the rules from the start. How many times do we wish we could roll back the clock?
I am currently working with one vendor/builder who sincerely wants to keep the costs down. Our target of $150.00 for the parts installed should be close.
Carter
Robert Patton wrote:
[quote]Carter needs to be careful in his wording and add a disclaimer that allows for the racer to change the muffler "based on local noise ordinaces that might be in effect in your area."
Respectfully, Robert Patton[/quote]
Robert makes a good point and this was discussed during my conversation with Bryan today, and will definitely be a part of the program.
Carter
Jim Levie wrote:
While we certainly don’t want to exclude anyone, if possible, Spec E30 is not designed to be a drive-to-the-track series. And the spec exhaust has to be the same for every car.
There are ways to get a racecar inspected and I have swapped mufflers at the track. It’s not difficult. You’re welcome to come by my paddock area Friday night and I’ll help you do it. I’ll have my Rhino ramps and air tools and we can have it done in 15 minutes. You bring a beer.
Per Bryan’s announcement, on June 1,2008 the spec exhaust will be required on all cars that race in Spec E30 when they turn a wheel on the racing surface.
Carter
Carter Hunt wrote:
[quote]Jim Levie wrote:
While we certainly don’t want to exclude anyone, if possible, Spec E30 is not designed to be a drive-to-the-track series. And the spec exhaust has to be the same for every car.
Per Bryan’s announcement, on June 1,2008 the spec exhaust will be required on all cars that race in Spec E30 when they turn a wheel on the racing surface.
Carter[/quote]
Where can I find Bryan’s announcement?
I’ll comply with the spec exhaust by June 1, 2008
FWIW - My car is still registered and probably will be through 2008 as I don’t have the financial resources for a tow vehicle, trailer, or storage location. We borrow/rent tow vehicles and trailers and we may, just may, drive it to a few events next year. Fortunately my state (nor my partner’s state) does not require inspection.
Obviously, with a drive it to the track then drive it home car I am not "Racer X"…I do hope a few of you will be telling me I have "nice tail lights" next year though!
Don
While I’m sure that wasn’t one of the design goals, up to now that has been the case and for some folks I suspect being able to retain street legal status is attraction. There’s no question as to the advisability of trailering the car to the track, but being able to drive it there opens the field to folks on a tight budget.
And it would have been possible to spec an exhaust that is still legal (or can easily & cheaply be switched from track to street configuration by changing just mufflers). As I understand the new spec to change from street to track now everything from the headers back will have to be swapped to meet inspection requirement in a state like California that has very strict rules. But I guess that’s a moot point now…
Since the car is registered in Alabama, which doesn’t do any inspections, only the noise issue would be a concern for me. And I figure I’ll have solved the trailer problem well before the new rule takes affect, so I don’t really care. I was more acting as an advocate for future "Spec E30 wannabe’s" on a tight budget that live in states with an inspection/emissions requirement.
While I think 15 minutes to change an exhaust is a bit optimistic (30-45 would be more like it), I agree that it could be changed at the track. Getting the race exhaust to the track is a larger problem. Remember, in a state with an emissions requirement the car isn’t legal without a catalytic converter, so the swap is more than just a muffler.
Please understand that I’m not opposed to a spec exhaust. The rules could, and should, have been tighter from day one. So I whole heartedly support a spec exhaust. I just differ in what the spec should be.
It was emailed to me and many others by Bryan. I’ve pasted it here for everyone. (Tried to attach the original doc but keep getting an error, sorry).
++++++++++++
11/9/07
To: Spec E30 racers
RE: Spec Exhaust
I’d like to thank everyone for sending me email voicing their concerns and support of a spec exhaust for the class.
I’d like to point out some important points in regard to Spec classes, spec rules and NASA’s philosophy in general about rules.
By nature a spec class will be highly regulated. Whether the specification is set by a manufacturer, sanctioning body or rule set, every aspect of a car preparation should be regulated.
People choose a spec class based on several things. Most importantly is the control of costs that having a highly regulated rule set brings. The emphasis is placed squarely upon the driver, which enhances the attraction of the class.
NASA has a policy of closing loopholes in rule sets as quickly as possible. We did this at the 2007 National Championships in the SM class. A driver took advantage of the loophole. We congratulated him for reading the rules, finding the hole and then fixed the loophole mid week. He suffered no penalty other than having to remove a bolt on strut bar.
In the case of the unregulated exhaust on the Spec E30 cars, a loophole has been found. Exhaust is a place where a willing driver can spend hours on a dyno trying different configurations, pipe diameters, mufflers, etc in search of an advantage. The biggest gain will be found in torque, which helps off the line from standing starts and corner exit, especially from medium and slow speed corners.
There are dyno sheets from Nationals that show an advantage to certain exhaust systems, but no one has taken things to the next level as I mention above. Without swift action this will get quickly out of control and suddenly it will take a $1000 exhaust to be competitive. None of us want that.
So, to make a long story short, NASA supports closing this loophole quickly and efficiently, while being fair to the many new drivers in Spec E30.
The new exhaust rule will issue a spec for tubing diameter, muffler brand, bend type, placement and length of straight sections, collector type and size and exit location. This will equalize the field of cars one step further and help place the emphasis where it should be, on the driver.
The goal for us, as part of the rules, is to supply you with all the information you need to purchase the parts, take them to a reputable exhaust shop and have them build a legal exhaust for your car. We cannot control pricing of the parts or what any shop will charge, but the parts will be readily available. The rule will become effective June 1, 2008, thus giving you plenty of time to gather the needed parts and spread out the cost.
I hope this helps clear up some of the misunderstandings and will allow us to move forward in a positive fashion.
Thanks for racing with NASA!
Bryan Cohn
National Competition Manager
NASA Pro Racing
414 744 5293 Office
bcohn@drivenasa.com
++++++++++++
So is the 318 a loophole then?
Surely having a completely different car with a different min. weight and a different engine has more unknowns then an exhaust?
No one has really tested it outside of Rob who admits the car isn’t finished (at least that I’m aware of). What is to stop racer X from having two cars and driving whichever is quicker on a particular track? Again spending money to extensively test and see which setup is faster.
Do we close this loophole by saying no more 318’s? Or using the logic of the exhaust outlaw the 325 suddenly and go to the 318?
[quote]
So, to make a long story short, NASA supports closing this loophole quickly and efficiently, while being fair to the many new drivers in Spec E30. [/quote]
Are the new drivers the people that don’t have built and active cars? I still haven’t seen any explanation of why the spec exhaust can’t be (and isn’t going to be) the twin glasspack setup that 80% or more already run, with the racer x minority forced to change. Certainly there could be small differences between 2.5in vs. 3in pipe and assorted glasspack mufflers, the HP/TRQ cap could account for that.
I’m done beating this horse, I guess the explanation will be "Because we said so" and everyone will like it or lump it.
Carter Hunt wrote:
[quote]Jim Levie wrote:
While we certainly don’t want to exclude anyone, if possible, Spec E30 is not designed to be a drive-to-the-track series. And the spec exhaust has to be the same for every car.
There are ways to get a racecar inspected and I have swapped mufflers at the track. It’s not difficult. You’re welcome to come by my paddock area Friday night and I’ll help you do it. I’ll have my Rhino ramps and air tools and we can have it done in 15 minutes. You bring a beer.
Per Bryan’s announcement, on June 1,2008 the spec exhaust will be required on all cars that race in Spec E30 when they turn a wheel on the racing surface.
Carter[/quote]
Ouch. I thought pollution controls would remain?
http://spece30.com/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,86/func,view/id,14044/catid,5/#14050
I am not Racer X and I’m not inclined to copy his system when he laps me. However, the cost of doing so to keep up with him is far less than taking my car off the street and investing in a tow vehicle and trailer.
I am the hopeful driver whom had chosen SpecE30 for the possibility of driving to/from the track in a car that wouldn’t get me ticketed for killing trees.
I’m not crunching on granola in my Birkenstocks and hemp-fiber hand-knit clothes. I’m in favor of a spec exhaust for all of the reasons Carter and Bryan have eloquently shared. However, I have to keep my car street legal… and that pretty much means I’ll have no hope of competing. If I were a cynic, I’d call that a real cost savings. My Racer X has a truck and can tow his (dirty) racecar. 
Why have pollution controls been removed from the spec? How difficult would it be to mandate them instead? Is the series more concerned with stemming Racer X from emptying others pockets than with attracting new drivers to itself?
I’ve said it before, and I know I sound like an ass saying it again, but SpecE30=RACE CAR! It’s NOT a street car. To think you can drive to the track, race, and drive home is folly. Sooner or later this approach will leave you stranded at the track with a broken or munched car and no way home. I thought that I could drive to the track, too, before I started, but reality set in quickly. A tow vehicle and trailer are, unfortunately, part of the price of admission. It’s still cheap racing, relatively speaking.
That said, I don’t understand why the spec exhaust cannot be the stock system, with the cat gutted or not (racer’s option), and two glass packs on the back. This seems to be what many are running, plus it solves the problem of specifying all the bend locations and types; it uses the stock system all the way to the mufflers.
Sasha
newbies want to get their car spec e30 ready as they’re doing HPDE, comp school and initially racing. They may not stay that way for very long, but they’re not ready to make the tow vehicle/trailer commitment at the start. We shouldn’t throw up any more hurdles that make it more attractive to play in, say, 944spec which is pretty lax re letting you continue development of your car as you start racing.
The idea of using the stock system with glasspacks has to account for the differences in cars by year (I’m not sure if all of the 325i’s were the same or if I’m remembering an irrelevant 325e config) and the difference between 325i and 318is. However, I think we should allow a configuration that allows a CAT (working or gutted) to stay in place.
thanks,
bruce
Sasha Berghausen wrote:
[quote]I’ve said it before, and I know I sound like an ass saying it again, but SpecE30=RACE CAR! It’s NOT a street car. To think you can drive to the track, race, and drive home is folly. Sooner or later this approach will leave you stranded at the track with a broken or munched car and no way home. I thought that I could drive to the track, too, before I started, but reality set in quickly. A tow vehicle and trailer are, unfortunately, part of the price of admission. It’s still cheap racing, relatively speaking.
That said, I don’t understand why the spec exhaust cannot be the stock system, with the cat gutted or not (racer’s option), and two glass packs on the back. This seems to be what many are running, plus it solves the problem of specifying all the bend locations and types; it uses the stock system all the way to the mufflers.
Sasha[/quote]
Thank you, Racer X, er, Sasha. :huh:
I think I’ll put my faith in Carter and Bryan instead. Carter said months ago the spec exhaust would be street legal, hence the quote. By overlooking/forgetting about that, SpecE30 automagically turns away drivers like me. I’ve not got the room at home for a trailer. Is the price of admission my having to move to a new house too?
As for folly, a mentor of mine regularly races his street legal RX-7 arriving at the track self contained. His name is Jack Burrows and you’ll see him on most of the MARRS rosters.
[edit] 'Just saw Carter’s post from an hour ago summarizing 2008’s changes. I will wait to see the wording regarding cars trailered and cars driven to the tracks. :fingers crossed:
How bout truly making it Spec and having one vendor build all cars exactly the same and sell/rent them to the racers. I even say lets get rid of all the graphics and pattern the cars like the IROC series where the only difference is the color (which will be chosen by the RULES COMMITTEE). If this is the case I’d like to go ahead and put myself down for a purple one. Finally, as I am considering switching from 944 CUP to Spec E30 I’d like to know of any other potential rules changes that might be in the pipeline; spec seat, spec brake fluid, fuzzy dice hanging off mirror…
Cheers
How bout truly making it Spec and having one vendor build all cars exactly the same and sell/rent them to the racers. I even say lets get rid of all the graphics and pattern the cars like the IROC series where the only difference is the color (which will be chosen by the RULES COMMITTEE). If this is the case I’d like to go ahead and put myself down for a purple one. Finally, as I am considering switching from 944 CUP to Spec E30 I’d like to know of any other potential rules changes that might be in the pipeline; spec seat, spec brake fluid, fuzzy dice hanging off mirror…
Cheers