 |
|
I like Jim. He gave me some used brake pads.
This thread is headed downhill.
Willf, Al’s (fartbref) been at the game for some time. Long enough to realize the absurdity (is that a word) of some of this stuff.You’ve got to meet him to understand, he’s quite the character.
Your comments are dead-on and prehaps a notation in the rules for 2009 will be forthcomming. It is a good group of folks that are overseeing the series.
Regards, Robert Patton
Jim’s a dirty racer with a bad attitude that listens to Christopher Cross Unplugged. Start a new thread to discuss further.
For those of you debating loopholes in the engine rules, I do fail to understand why this topic (rockers) has been the one to catch so much attention when other rules leave the door much wider open.
An example:
In the rules the word “replaced means: the item may be replaced with items meeting or exceeding OEM
specifications.” So how are we going to define “exceeding?” I only bring this up, because if we are speaking about engines and drive-train losses, one may want to consider these:
9.3.1.2.3. Rings may be replaced.
9.3.1.2.4. Bearings may be replaced.
9.3.1.2.5. Valve guides may be replaced.
I am quite sure that if someone were to build those parts in the guidelines of “EXCEEDING OEM SPECIFICATIONS,” they could more than find 5hp through efficiency of piston movement, air flow, etc.
On the other hand, the word “substituted” means: original OEM equivalent items may be used.
This word seems a little more appropriate.
Just trying to close some loopholes.
Yup, I read Mark Donohue’s book “The UnfairAdvantage” and people who spend the time and money to take advantage of every loophole in a series’ rules are a part of racing, I do not doubt that.
BUT, why would someone spend the time and money to re-engineer a part that may or may not give them an advantage in a series like spec e30? I have watched Perry Genova, Doctor of Mechanical Engineering, Holder of many patents work on this rocker arm “problem”. It has been painful.
Why wouldn’t someone spend the time and money on their driving, going to pro schools, hiring pro coaches, SO THEIR EFFORT WOULD TRANSFER TO SOMETHING OTHER THAN AN OLD CAR IN A AMATUER RACE SERIES.
So, yea, MAYBE you or some other racer X will beat me, but while you spend your time and money on building the perfect beast, I will be out snowboarding and rock climbing. And when the economy whips your butt, or the reliability of your car makes you give up, I will still be out racing in my $5k POS spec e30.
Al
Builder of the first Biodiesel Road Race Car in the US
BMW CCA BM National Champion 2003 (No DNF’s!)
Class winner KP, IP, BM, DM, PP
2nd Overall Season Championship SE AND MA 2006 Spec e30
Builder of the Toiletmobile
Winner of the Keith Moon Memorial Hotel Room Destruction Award
Jon,
I’m with you, and will take a step further. Why would we allow a 2nd overbore? I know we’re late in the game for this one, since a lot of racers already have them…but allowing it in the first place was just dumb.
It would not surprise me if you could get more than 5hp from selecting the best match of OE block, crank, rods, pistons, and head. And then there’s the possibility of reducing losses in the transmission and differential by part selection and polishing. It takes a good bit of money to play this game, but doing so is entirely within the rules.
While fraught with difficulties, dyno testing and DQ for cars on the high side of the curve is attractive as a means combating the “money game”.
I’m in agreement with closing loopholes in the rules as we come across them. But to a certain extent, aren’t all the engine loophole issues irrelevant once the HP/TQ limits are created? Spending tons of money to make every last possible amount of power doesn’t make sense if you aren’t allowed to have an engine with that much power to begin with.
Al,
Thanks for listing your club racing resume for me, but when I asked about your experience it was a rhetorical question…
I meant not to argue with you about your POS e30 but to state the fact that cars WILL be being built for $15k plus and you will probably be doing a lot more mountain climbing and biking when 20plus of those uber e30s show up and your car becomes obsolete.
My point starting this whole thread was not to argue with a bunch of you guys in a forums boxing match, but to state that if those grey areas in the rules don’t get made into black and white guys WILL bring expensive cars to the track regardless of your outdoor activities…
In case I didn’t make myself clear, I do NOT want to be in another class like that. I do not want to have blueprinted this and polished that ect… I like the class where it is, just not the grey areas…
Will, its best to let it go, you will beat your head against the wall arguing these points. Ask me how I know.
secu wrote:
AAAAHAHAHAHAH!!! You mean when the secret statistician develops sophisicated measureable, repeatable, reliable limits?!?! We’ll be better off with one of these:
willf wrote:
[quote]Al,
Thanks for listing your club racing resume for me, but when I asked about your experience it was a rhetorical question…
[/quote]
Nice attitude. Maybe its not the class for you…
155MPH wrote:
[quote]willf wrote:
[quote]Al,
Thanks for listing your club racing resume for me, but when I asked about your experience it was a rhetorical question…
[/quote]
Nice attitude. Maybe its not the class for you…[/quote]
ha
Steve D wrote:
[quote]FARTBREF wrote:
Over on “another” board, they call it PMS - parked Miata syndrome. Happens every winter about this time.
I haven’t come up with any witty E30ism for it…
Steve D.[/quote]
Everyone has NERD
No E30 Racing Disease.
Anyone care to write up the Symptoms and put it on WebMD.
Sorry I couldn’t think of anything better than NERD.
willf wrote:
[quote]155MPH wrote:
[quote]willf wrote:
[quote]Al,
Thanks for listing your club racing resume for me, but when I asked about your experience it was a rhetorical question…
[/quote]
Nice attitude. Maybe its not the class for you…[/quote]
ha[/quote]
His sentiments are shared by many. Whether you like all of the rules, the regional leaders, or anything else, the fact of the matter is that people within SpecE30 have respect for each other on a level which should be maintained. Consider it next time.
I think you missed my point, which was I, and many others who participate in Spec e30 do it for fun. Which is why I mentioned my other activities…
The title of the thread you started is " Correct me if I am wrong" A little pretentious I think.
Bryan Watts predicted some high $ cars coming into Spec e30 3 years ago, so it is old news.
I have participated in vintage racing which is the ultimate “checkbook racing”, yes, many cheap vintage guys have been run off because they have to compete against 75k BMW 2002’s. The sanctioning bodies need to address it and I guess they will as the economy shrinks the fields. I used to catch some crap from the officials as guys who had over $100k invested in their P cars didnt like getting beat by a POS Bavaria. I bet the folks who would spend the time and $$ to exploit all the grey area’s in the spec e30 rules are the same type of folks that would protest the POS cars when they get whupped.
My understanding of Spec E30 is it is meant to be affordable and competitive. Affordable is a subjective term and relative to each individual’s income level.
This isn’t meant to be the 24hrs of lemons or the $2008 Grassroots Challenge. If you want to see how cheap you can race there are those outlets, as well as autocross, if you consider that racing.
From what little I’ve seen there is no such thing as cheap racing (or private aircraft, owning a horse, sailboat racing and yachts). Al pretty much wrote the book on how to do this economically, and he does it by tempering his expectations and focusing on the fun. If you’re concerned with how much you’re spending in any series you can always spend less. But it doesn’t mean you’re going to be competitive either. Whatever rules or loopholes are out there (or not there) someone with a bigger check book can take advantage either with tires, more testing, private coaching, etc.
I’m not professing to be an expert but you can see this from our series all the way up to Penske and the ALMs.