2012 Nationals Information

#1

2012 National SpecE30 Racers,

I’ve signed up for another tour-of-duty as the SpecE30 Series Director for the Nationals at Mid Ohio. I had a lot of fun last year and it was great meeting all the competitors. Like last year, my job at Nationals will be to make sure that this is a fair fight with respect to our race cars. My goals are pretty straightforward and seek to: convince myself, my fellow NASA scrutineers, the NASA Brass and most importantly the racers that the all the race cars are in compliance with the rules and the 2012 National Championship is won fair and square. I want everyone to walk away knowing that the podium occupants are undisputed winners.

I believe last year’s event was a success. I plan to run a similar program this year and will utilize a number of tools to inspect cars which can include: engine dyno testing, shock dyno testing, fuel testing, differential testing and determining correct specs in terms of legal weight, track width and camber. With prior concurrence from all participating National SE30 racers, I will make test results public, such as dyno results and shock dyno testing. An individual’s legal car set up parameters (camber, toe etc) will be kept confidential per the CCRs (see Section 17.4 page 72)

Basic Friendly Reminders for Racers:

• All race cars to have current logbook and 2012 NASA Safety Tech Decal;

• All race cars to have 4 NASA decals and four TOYO Tire Decals;

• All SpecE30 race cars to have the proper graphics for the class per the rule set (see section 7.4 of the SE30 rule set);

• All racer’s suits will display a NASA patch with other sanctioning body patches covered;

• All race cars will cover up or remove other sanctioning body decals.

• All SE30 race cars are to have un-molested ECUs in them – in other words do not bring an ECU to Nationals that shows evidence of tampering (bent tabs, scratch marks on the underside);

• All race cars have properly secured ballast and batteries per the SE30 rules & CCRs;

• I highly recommend all National SE30 racers to re-familiarize themselves before the event with NASA’s CCRs Section 17.0 (Vehicle Legality Inspection) and Section 18.0 (General Competition Vehicle Rules);

• It also wouldn’t hurt to review NASA’s CCR Appendix Section 25 (On-Course Conduct) and Section 26 (Appendix A – Incident Scenarios) and Section 27 (Incident Review Board Guidelines).

Horizontal Front Splitters: These are still legal for 2012 but a rule change disallowing horizontal splitters is being recommended for the 2013 Season.

Spec Fuel: Last year we required all racers to use spec fuel supplied by the pump station at Mid Ohio. We are evaluating this requirement for this year and will be dependent on availability and price. Currently the 93 octane fuel price at MidOhio is $5/gallon. We’re hoping it stays at or below this price. As before, if we require spec gasoline it will only be required for qualifying and races beginning Thursday. Practice sessions prior to this racers can use non-spec fuel. We feel this is a reasonable and a not too expensive compliance tool. It eliminates one variable and puts everyone on the same playing field. A fuel sample port is recommended but not required. This is an easy installation. Note that without a fuel port the extra time necessary for our tech inspectors to safely sample fuel may cause delays and potentially a loss of track time. I will get the word out as soon as a decision is made about spec fuel.

Race Car Appearance: This is our National event which will be televised on GoRacing TV. I encourage all participants to take some extra time to make their cars look the part.

Run Group: I’m pretty sure SE30s will be grouped with the 944 Spec cars like last year. Overall this was a good group to match up with in terms of speed/weight and class size. Additionally, a small contingent of Spec 3’s will be in the run group.

Smart/Cell Phone Message Group: I’m going to try this out this year to see how it works. I’m planning on constructing a message group of for National SE30 racers and use it to communicate to the group as well as having a tool that the racers can communicate back to either the group or to me.

As usual, I’m open to any suggestions for improvement. Please feel free to email me at scott.neville@norcalspece30.com.

I hope this pre-view helps!
Thanks and Looking Forward to a Great Event! B)
Scott

#2

Thanks for taking charge at Nationals. I’m sure everyone appreciates the opportunity to have someone dedicated to our class!

Couple of questions:

  1. camber: we’ve had issues with enforcing this locally. My suggestion would be to have a dedicated spot where it will be measured and allow participants to borrow the equipment that will be used for compliance check to make a self check/adjustment on the first day of competition. One of our local guys had a Hunter rack alignment to spec and then came in significantly over when measured at MidOhio. Being able to check/adjust up front should prevent any issues.

  2. ECU: so if someone’s ECU has been opened before to check the chip, you expect them to source another ECU that they’ve never run before and run that at Nationals? Besides the extra cost involved, isn’t this just asking for problems with an untried/untested ECU? (note: I’m not saying this is a problem for me specifically, as I don’t even know if our case shows any signs of opening as I’ve never looked at it but I’ve heard and read here on the forum about the trouble that others have had with ECUs so it makes really hesitant to make this kind of change last minute)

#3

[quote=“jlucas” post=67548]Thanks for taking charge at Nationals. I’m sure everyone appreciates the opportunity to have someone dedicated to our class!

Couple of questions:

  1. camber: we’ve had issues with enforcing this locally. My suggestion would be to have a dedicated spot where it will be measured and allow participants to borrow the equipment that will be used for compliance check to make a self check/adjustment on the first day of competition. One of our local guys had a Hunter rack alignment to spec and then came in significantly over when measured at MidOhio. Being able to check/adjust up front should prevent any issues.

  2. ECU: so if someone’s ECU has been opened before to check the chip, you expect them to source another ECU that they’ve never run before and run that at Nationals? Besides the extra cost involved, isn’t this just asking for problems with an untried/untested ECU? (note: I’m not saying this is a problem for me specifically, as I don’t even know if our case shows any signs of opening as I’ve never looked at it but I’ve heard and read here on the forum about the trouble that others have had with ECUs so it makes really hesitant to make this kind of change last minute)[/quote]

Thanks Jeremy,

Camber: You’re right about taking camber measurements and how important the surface the car is resting on when being measured. Tech usually doesn’t like to lend out their tools but we’ll figure something out. The garage space at MidOhio that we were housed in last year had a slope to it and we found wasn’t a great place to measure camber. This is on my list to find a good place to take measurements.

ECUs: I’m going to hold fast on this one as we had two issues with ECUs last year that caused us re-test two cars on the dyno. I’m giving enough advanced notification that someone attending Nationals can buy or borrow a known good un-molested ECU. Small cost for a replacement ECU compared to the big picture of attending Nationals. We had problems last year and I want to avoid those same problems this year.

Cheers,
Scott

#4

Scott, what are you/NASA doing to get this event specific information to the entered competitors? Certainly a forum post is not considered official notification?

If this rule is needed it should be in the main SpecE30 rules not event specific. I’m not convinced that quick visual check guarantees compliance. And just so you and everyone else knows I’m not continueing to talk about it because I have to get a new ECU, I don’t. Here’s my ECU:

Those that know me, know I speak my mind and I don’t like this type of precedent being set. Why not have a known good ECU as part of the tech equipment just like the spare shocks we have to swap onto cars while the others are dyno’d. If there’s any question on ECU, redyno the car with that series owned ECU; if someone is found non compliant, they pay for the rerun; compliant, that’s on NASA. Are you 100% convinced it not possible to open an ECU without leaving marks?

Please don’t take this the wrong way, I appreciate you being there for us at the event despite disagreeing on this point.

I’ve said my piece and I’ll leave it at that.

#5

I have to agree with Jeremy. I removed my ECU last weekend and looked it over long and hard. At first glance I would say it was not ever opened. Then when you look closer I am not sure. I am going to have to compare it to some others I have. I am not sure if the marks I see are from original assembly or something else. I know some racers who have removed chips and replaced with stock. Others who have opened their ECU to make sure they have the right one. I don’t know if anyone would be able to tell 100% one way or the other.

#6

What if we have an ECU/DME that has been opened, but is completely stock? We are taking about a car that’s last production run was over 20 years ago. How do we know for sure our replacement ECU/DME is compliant? Most likely you don’t know the history of the car. For all you know it might looked unopened, but you can’t checked to see if it’s been chipped because you don’t want to make it look like you opened it. Then you get dyno’s and/or drive the car just to find out the rpm limit is 200-300 higher. This is assuming you and the other entrants can find ‘un-opened’ ECU’s in the first place.

Then again, I have no experience with the ECU/DME. Maybe there is an obvious tell for an opened unit.

2nd thing, I agree with Jeremy. What if a competitor shows up to Nationals without viewing these specific rules because he/she doesn’t follow the forum? NASA just sent all National entrants an email about tires. That I believe would be better than this thread, but I feel the rules should be posted BEFORE registration for Nationals ever opens. Then everyone knows what they signed up for.

#7

Regarding using this Forum: I did make an assumption that all SpecE30 National competitors will read this forum. I think it’s fair assumption since last year I didn’t hear that anyone missed out on information. I will re-post this then on NASA’s main forum. I will also ask Regional SE30 Directors to get the word out.

Regarding ECUs: My motive here is to avoid two issues we had at Nationals last year. One competitor had a chipped ECU in his car and didn’t know it. The young racer and his father were both devastated when it was discovered. I was sure (judging from their reactions at the dyno when the car was checked with our reference ECE) that it was an honest mistake. The other car needed an extra dyno to prove the ECE that had been opened was indeed stock. Requiring competitors to bring un-molested ECU should help alleviate these problems. It at least gets them looking at their ECUs (something our young racer didn’t do and it ruined his weekend).

Frankly, I didn’t think it would be a big deal. However, in thinking more about ECUs and thier availability, I’ve got three PicNPull’s within 30 minutes of my house in Sacramento. With California’s mild climate, the ECUs that come out of these cars usually looking brand new. Last time I bought one it cost $65. I have not heard of any problems in my region with getting working stock ECUs out of junk yards. I didn’t think about it at the time I wrote this, but it makes sense that for the other regions with harsher weather, high humidity, lack of available junker cars etc., picking up an good stock unmolested ECU might be more difficult.

Therefore, I don’t want folks to spend hundreds of dollars finding a replacement ECU. I was thinking this was a $60-$70 deal and an easy trip to the junk yard. Maybe not an easy deal for some. Borrow a known good one if you can. If yours has been opened but is stock in performance, have a NASA official from your region email me before the event that it is indeed legal.

As far as inspection, we look for bent or uneven tabs and scratches under or around the tabs. If you don’t see that kind of evidence on your ECU then you’re good.

#8

I am not going to the junkyard to buy anything for rules compliance. I bought my car that had a Miller MAF conversion. I absoultely had to get into the ECU to change it back to the original chip (which was given to me by the PO). I also had to get into the wiring after figuring out that you need to rewire the ECU to read the MAF correctly.

Tear mine apart all you want, don’t really care. However, I’m not wasting a bunch of time going to a pick and pull to chase down an ECU because I need to prove I’m not cheating. There are plenty of other ways to go about this.

I don’t think you would ever have to worry about my car winning any dyno races anyway…

#9

Scott thanks for taking charge at nationals.

I am new to series ( just bought car last week) but will be racing e30 at nats, and have been there before as racer and series director (pt)

I take it from your message you are reccomending people show up with a that looks like unopened, I don’t think u mean people will suffer a dq for having scratches on as rules don’t prohibit that’?

#10

If you don’t have scratches on your DME tabs that means you have not checked it to confirm it’s an OEM chip. Very few of us know the history of our cars or the DME that we are running. You’re crazy if you’ve not opened your DME to look.

#11

I’m crazy then. The car was unmodified when I bought it, and the ECU looks unmolested. I also have a spare 173 that appears unmolested.

#12

Strictly speaking, we think of you as more of a “nut” then “crazy”.

Trust, but verify.

#13

After watching this thread I did a bit of experimenting with a couple of dead DME’s this weekend. The first attempt didn’t go that well, but after I made a tool I was able to open and close the other DME and leave no obvious marks. And no, I’m not going to say how I did it.

In my opinion this requirement “looks good on paper” but isn’t going to catch a determined cheater. All it amounts to is a burden on the majority of the racers. There are other ways to cheat that that you won’t find unless you know they are there and know how to find them. And I’m not going to say what they are either.

Dyno data is is useful, but the peak numbers aren’t as important as is the shape and area under the torque curve.

#14

Michael, could you please email Scott on behalf of all Great Lakes Region SE30 racers that our ECU’s are, indeed legal? Thank you.

(And, if we get on the dyno and find our rev limit is higher than 6400 rpm, it’s our own damn fault for having not checked before and we’ll know better next time.)

#15

Why would i want to Lie to Scott? I’m not even sure if mine is legal. I don’t think it has ever been open but am afraid to open and look now.

#16

I understand both sides of the open/unopen thingeedo.

While Jim might not tell you how to open it without marks, as a Regional director, too, I’ll let the cat-out-of-the-bag.

Use a plastic trim tool to open the tangs or put a credit card under the screwdriver that you use to open the tangs.

There it is, common sense at work for the cheater in all of us.

This one is Scott’s call, but if I were going to the Nationals I would make sure the previous owner had not installed a chip to avoid the embarrasment (DQ?)that would/could happen to you.

Unfortuneately, for racers from the Southeast, I have been opening these up (scratching the case at the same time) and looking for the factory BMW decal on the chip.

Unbeknowngst to me, we have since learned that the BMW stickered chip can be purchased blank and then programmed with better timing and fuel to make more power.

So, Scott, the entrants from the SE will have prior-opened boxes with screwdriver marks and magic marker notes that say “Robert was Here.”

Sorry for the trouble that this may cause. Scott, I’ll send an official e-mail to you on the SE racers that will be in attendance.

RP

#17

[quote=“jlevie” post=67741]After watching this thread I did a bit of experimenting with a couple of dead DME’s this weekend. The first attempt didn’t go that well, but after I made a tool I was able to open and close the other DME and leave no obvious marks. And no, I’m not going to say how I did it.

In my opinion this requirement “looks good on paper” but isn’t going to catch a determined cheater. All it amounts to is a burden on the majority of the racers. There are other ways to cheat that that you won’t find unless you know they are there and know how to find them. And I’m not going to say what they are either.

Dyno data is is useful, but the peak numbers aren’t as important as is the shape and area under the torque curve.[/quote]

Jim, why not tell the racers that, as directors, we’re one step ahead of them? That slotted timing position sensor will get you DQed as fast as the chipped chip.

PS Did Carter send out the flywheel checker tool that I gave him to send to the directors back at the Charlotte racce?

RP

#18

Yep! And it isn’t at all difficult to DIY your own BMW look alike. To really know if the DME has a stock chip you have to pull it and do a binary compare with a known good image.

Okay, I’ll let a different cat out of the bag… I made a kind of hook tool that catches the end of bent down tang and bears against the tab. It doesn’t leave a mark anywhere.

#19

Yep! And it isn’t at all difficult to DIY your own BMW look alike. To really know if the DME has a stock chip you have to pull it and do a binary compare with a known good image.

Okay, I’ll let a different cat out of the bag… I made a kind of hook tool that catches the end of bent down tang and bears against the tab. It doesn’t leave a mark anywhere.[/quote]

Jim, thanks for all you do for this race series!

RP

#20

Look guys, I didn’t think this would balloon into a shitstorm. We had two ECUs last year that had been opened. One was chipped, one was not and was determined OK.

I’m simply trying to make an improvement to this year’s event and decided to require ECUs that are “unmolested”. I understand these things can be opened and modified and look pristine. My main goal was to get guys to double check their ECUs and to avoid the deal we had last year. The racer who had the chipped ECU was really impacted by this at the time and it ruined his weekend. Like I said before I was convinced it was an honest mistake but even so the racer felt like shit about it. He was DQ’d btw. The re-testing that we did also ate up valuable time and $$.

I’m just trying to make this event the best experience for everyone. I don’t go into this event thinking everyone is cheating and I’m going to catch them. I go into this event with the idea that we will perform the right kind of verification testing on the things that matter such that all participants walk away feeling that the racers on the podium have won fair and square car-wise. Trust…but verify.

Thank you also Robert.