2012 Nationals Information

#21

Scott, in my opinion, if Brandon’s ECU had been carefully opened and reclosed with the chip installed, then he SURELY would never have known if he had an aftermarket chip, because he would have been afraid to open it. Why not just give all racers fair warning and state that you will be checking ECU chips or rev limits or whatever. I don’t think that making us source an ECU with no markings showing that it has been opened addresses the root cause at all.

A long term solution would be to have all ECU’s sent over the winter to someone who can factually verify that they are correct and legal. Then, that certified person puts a tamper-proof seal on the edges of the case so that you can see if it’s been opened since verification.

Are you saying that, as of now, if our ECU shows markings of being opened, that would be grounds for DQ?

#22

Scott, I understand your intent…, but are you telling us an ecu with scratch marks will get a dq… Because if you are, that will create issues for everyone because that is not required by the rules

#23

[quote=“Z3SpdDmn” post=67782]Scott, in my opinion, if Brandon’s ECU had been carefully opened and reclosed with the chip installed, then he SURELY would never have known if he had an aftermarket chip, because he would have been afraid to open it. Why not just give all racers fair warning and state that you will be checking ECU chips or rev limits or whatever. I don’t think that making us source an ECU with no markings showing that it has been opened addresses the root cause at all.

A long term solution would be to have all ECU’s sent over the winter to someone who can factually verify that they are correct and legal. Then, that certified person puts a tamper-proof seal on the edges of the case so that you can see if it’s been opened since verification.

Are you saying that, as of now, if our ECU shows markings of being opened, that would be grounds for DQ?[/quote]

Agreed, this type of tape is used by many OEMs to put on peoples’ phones to know if they have tampered with the camera lenses.

Put them all over the place if you like.

Hell, you can do it at the nationals if you want. As long as it doesn’t impact my track time.

#24

We all can agree that having a scratched up ECU makes it suspect. When that happens then we may need to take the time to open it up and inspect it or put the car on the dyno. I’m just trying to save time and effort on Tech’s end of things and maybe save a racer from what happened last year with the chipped ECU.

I will not DQ a car for having a scratched up ECU. But having one puts your car in the “suspect” catagory subject to possible additional inspection or testing.

All I’m asking for is to either bring an ECU that doesn’t look molested or if yours has been opened up have your Regional Director tell me it’s OK.

I’m trying to make things simpler not more complicated. I guess this attempt has blown up in my face :pinch:

#25

Scott, we all appreciate your efforts, so my disagreement should not contradict that. I think that, in general, if there are changes like this or the fuel sampling that will take place, they should be laid out at the beginning of the year so we’re not scrambling to prepare (on top of the other things we’re scrambling to prepare) a month before Nationals.
Another example: I just had my alignment reset yesterday. I have no idea if this will have any bearing on the setup that I run at Nats because it sounds like there will be some confirmation method there. How this will be remotely accurate as compared to a Hunter laser alignment, I can’t see. I would like to know asap, though.

#26

We all can agree that having a scratched up ECU makes it suspect. When that happens then we may need to take the time to open it up and inspect it or put the car on the dyno. I’m just trying to save time and effort on Tech’s end of things and maybe save a racer from what happened last year with the chipped ECU.

I will not DQ a car for having a scratched up ECU. But having one puts your car in the “suspect” catagory subject to possible additional inspection or testing.

All I’m asking for is to either bring an ECU that doesn’t look molested or if yours has been opened up have your Regional Director tell me it’s OK.

I’m trying to make things simpler not more complicated. I guess this attempt has blown up in my face :pinch:[/quote]

Scott, I think you just nailed it (been watching too much Olympics) with that response.It is simple. Period.

You’ve got my e-mail and my guys are okay.
Good luck to everyone at the Nationals and thank you for enforcing and , better yet, interpreting the SE30 rules to the satisfaction of the racers.

For all that are watching and giving opinions, Scott’s job ain’t no easy task.

Work with me racers,work with me.

RP

#27

[quote=“Z3SpdDmn” post=67790]Scott, we all appreciate your efforts, so my disagreement should not contradict that. I think that, in general, if there are changes like this or the fuel sampling that will take place, they should be laid out at the beginning of the year so we’re not scrambling to prepare (on top of the other things we’re scrambling to prepare) a month before Nationals.
Another example: I just had my alignment reset yesterday. I have no idea if this will have any bearing on the setup that I run at Nats because it sounds like there will be some confirmation method there. How this will be remotely accurate as compared to a Hunter laser alignment, I can’t see. I would like to know asap, though.[/quote]

Come on Anthony, don’t give us the “I don’t know how if the alignment is going to be like your alignment” stuff. A bubble gauge is a bubble gauge.

You’ve been doing this since 2008 and if you’ve not yet been introduced to a Longacre camber gauge…makes me wonder how you set up a car properly without one. Purchase , verify and sleep well at night. The camber example is not a good one to use in this discussion.

RP

PS, You’re not scrambling, Nationals are 4 weeks away.This conversation is giving you time to prepare.Race hard, race clean and I’ve no doubt you’ll be at the front.

#28

i’m not going to nationals so i don’t have a horse in this race, but why not just collect ecus at the beginning and distribute them randomly? number them if you want, put a tamper sticker on the cover, and verify that the number hasn’t changed and sticker is intact after each race.

it is impossible to verify that a ecu chip is factory stock without doing some sort of binary/digital check which is probably beyond the scope of any tech inspector. dyno numbers are ultimately meaningless, unenforceable (not in the rules), time consuming, and expensive, and just having a stock redline doesn’t mean that a chip is stock.

#29

Jason, been there, done that on the random ECU swap-out thing. I’ll be sure to bring mine with the top speed limiter to swap into an unsuspecting car.

If you want to see racers bitch, moan and grown you should try and get them to swap ECUs. And when Al Taylor’s car won’t crank with a swapped ECU…well who can explain. Really, try to explain that. To Al. To anyone.

The swap thing is not a good idea.

Test 'em on the dyno. With six years of data from the Nationals testing and many, many test on dynos in different areas, by now we know what the numbers and curves should look like. Testing at under same day/same dyno eliminates variances. Outliers get a double test with a “control” ecu. Letter from regional director to explain previous openings.

Good plan,wish I’d thunk it up. If/when Pantas gets us a dyno you can look for this type of testing in the SE.

RP

#30

[quote=“jtower” post=67797]i’m not going to nationals so i don’t have a horse in this race, but why not just collect ecus at the beginning and distribute them randomly? number them if you want, put a tamper sticker on the cover, and verify that the number hasn’t changed and sticker is intact after each race.

it is impossible to verify that a ecu chip is factory stock without doing some sort of binary/digital check which is probably beyond the scope of any tech inspector. dyno numbers are ultimately meaningless, unenforceable (not in the rules), time consuming, and expensive, and just having a stock redline doesn’t mean that a chip is stock.[/quote]

I am pretty sure they tried this in the past. I think in Mid-Atlantic. If I remember correctly, this caused all sorts of running problems as some ECU’s were better then others, had smaller or larger tolerances for sensors, and had adapted or some such. There are also perceived advantages of one model ECU to another.

#31

I wish we would have done an ECU swap last year. :frowning: Actually, a drivetrain swap would have been the only thing that would have helped. :blush:

#32

[quote=“Patton” post=67793]
Come on Anthony, don’t give us the “I don’t know how if the alignment is going to be like your alignment” stuff. A bubble gauge is a bubble gauge.

You’ve been doing this since 2008 and if you’ve not yet been introduced to a Longacre camber gauge…makes me wonder how you set up a car properly without one. Purchase , verify and sleep well at night. The camber example is not a good one to use in this discussion.

RP

PS, You’re not scrambling, Nationals are 4 weeks away.This conversation is giving you time to prepare.Race hard, race clean and I’ve no doubt you’ll be at the front.[/quote]
It’s not a load of BS. We’ve tried measuring at the track and the ground surface provides an inconsistent result, at best. I guess everyone will be resetting their alignments at the track. I’m not going to delve any further into this can of worms. Sorry I brought it up.

While 1 month is “enough” time to prepare an ECU, it doesn’t have to be this way. I’m just trying to give the constructive feedback that giving more time would be appreciated.

#33

I will have to agree with Anthony about checking alignment at the track. Unless tech takes the time to create level setup pads, it cannot be done accurate enought. This was another issue at last years nationals.

I personally have a Longacre Digital gauge (same as what Anthony’s has since I bought it for him). I choose to align my car myself. Anthony chooses to pay someone. We both have tried various ways to make adjustments at the track without repeadable results.

But we are getting off topic. The real issue here is not stating the rules/requirements before registration opens for events. Scott did an awesome job last year, and I think it’s great that he is working hard to make sure everything goes smoothly. Just want to give my opinions on the situation as a National’s competitor.

Patton - I bought Geiger’s old car. If all the SE region’s ECUs are good, is my good by default? :cheer:

#34

[quote=“barkerdm” post=67816]I will have to agree with Anthony about checking alignment at the track. Unless tech takes the time to create level setup pads, it cannot be done accurate enought. This was another issue at last years nationals.

I personally have a Longacre Digital gauge (same as what Anthony’s has since I bought it for him). I choose to align my car myself. Anthony chooses to pay someone. We both have tried various ways to make adjustments at the track without repeadable results.

But we are getting off topic. The real issue here is not stating the rules/requirements before registration opens for events. Scott did an awesome job last year, and I think it’s great that he is working hard to make sure everything goes smoothly. Just want to give my opinions on the situation as a National’s competitor.

Patton - I bought Geiger’s old car. If all the SE region’s ECUs are good, is my good by default? :cheer:[/quote]

Perhaps I’ve assumed too much about a camber reading at a NATIONAL event and there being a level surface from which to measure.

Throw away my comments to Anthony if the measurements are on the ground surface as he alluded to, or anything else that is not level. Then the camber number is merely a suggestion with too many shades of gray.

I see the smiley face thingee, but let’s talk serious about the Geigermobile. Chances are the box has been opened. And ,even though a regional director says it is okay to participate, it doesn’t mean the box won’t be looked at per Scott Neville’s prior post. So, good by default: not so much. Again it is the NATIONALS where level surfaces and level playing fields have to exist.

RP

#35

Here is a topic that Nationals racers will want defined, if it is not already:

Is the camber measurement with or without the driver?

Good ideas on how to make this work?

I’ve not been to the Nationals since 2006 and there may already be a procedure for this. My apologies if it is another can-o-worms.

RP

#36

I assumed it was with driver. I sit in the car at the alignment shop.

#37

[quote=“King Tut” post=67828]I assumed it was with driver. I sit in the car at the alignment shop.[/quote]The rules aren’t specific so I’d have them measure left side with driver out and right side with driver in. :evil:

#38

[quote=“Patton” post=67827]Here is a topic that Nationals racers will want defined, if it is not already:

Is the camber measurement with or without the driver?
RP[/quote]

The previous years rules stated w/ driver in car. This year, the rules don’t specify.

#39

[quote=“Rob in VA” post=67830][quote=“Patton” post=67827]Here is a topic that Nationals racers will want defined, if it is not already:

Is the camber measurement with or without the driver?
RP[/quote]

The previous years rules stated w/ driver in car. This year, the rules don’t specify.[/quote]

Robert, I’m lazy, where are the “chapter and verse” on camber ? The verbage will clear it up for all concerned.

Thanks in advance,RP

#40

[quote=“Patton” post=67799]Jason, been there, done that on the random ECU swap-out thing. I’ll be sure to bring mine with the top speed limiter to swap into an unsuspecting car.

If you want to see racers bitch, moan and grown you should try and get them to swap ECUs. And when Al Taylor’s car won’t crank with a swapped ECU…well who can explain. Really, try to explain that. To Al. To anyone.

The swap thing is not a good idea.

Test 'em on the dyno. With six years of data from the Nationals testing and many, many test on dynos in different areas, by now we know what the numbers and curves should look like. Testing at under same day/same dyno eliminates variances. Outliers get a double test with a “control” ecu. Letter from regional director to explain previous openings.

Good plan,wish I’d thunk it up. If/when Pantas gets us a dyno you can look for this type of testing in the SE.

RP[/quote]

I always thought that would be a good idea to do a mix an match ecu, interesting some cars didn’t run right.

So after that, who had unknown chipped ecu’s? :slight_smile:

I agree, if you haven’t checked your ecu and at least one dyno of your car, the otis is 100% on the driver to make sure their car is legal. My $0.02