2011 Nationals - Who's Going?

#101

My big concern is what is going to be deemed safe and legal without an actual rule. I am confident I can go to Lowes or HomeDepot and get a brass tee and some kind of valve and make a test port. BUT without real guidance in a spaec class I am worried about what happens when I get to tech and then when a rule actually comes out. I am not sure this is yet a real requirement being a post in a forum and not an actual supplemental rule added to the event regs.

#102

Chuck - It may be appropriate to leave the commenting to those who race NASA.

As I understand it, this will be pump gas with a tracer added to the track tank. Easy peasy. Buy some 93, hit the dyno (if you are one of the, what, 3 guys who would hit the dyno to tune to different octane anyway?).

Much ado about nothing.

I will gladly pay the street price if anyone wants to pump out of their race car to my street car. I’m pretty sure it’ll be empty by the time I get to Ohio. :wink:

#103

Better question is how are you guys tuning for 93 octane on a car built to run on 87 octane from the factory without modifying the ECU?

#104

Steve, I can always count on you:( In every series of racing the rule book is the bible. YOU DO NOT CHANGE RULES WITHOUT ADEQUATE NOTIFICATION!!! It is just not done. NASA went to great lengths to copy the SCCA GCR but it has missed one critical element…rule changes. In my 10 years of racing, I have never seen an organization change rules just before a major race…it is just not done. If you want to verify fuel, check randomly (by the way, the oxygenated fuels smell differently that pump gas and spot checks will be very effective).

Now, one thing the rule book missed…if you install a fuel sample port, it must be able to sample fuel outside of the car. Cheap and easy way is a “T” in the RETURN line so you can use non FI hose, a 4’ length of hose (so the end will extend past the fender and outside the hot engine compartment) a male barb fitting with a cap…three hose clamps…done. Total cost about $10.00. Chuck

#105

Better question is how are you guys tuning for 93 octane on a car built to run on 87 octane from the factory without modifying the ECU?[/quote]
There are ways to change engine timing (illegal to be sure but you might not get caugt at it) that don’t involve the DME. The larger question is what gets done to the engine to necessitate 93 octane fuel, which isn’t necessary until the compression ratio gets to or above 10:1.

#106

Another thing I forgot to mention is weight. I’m not sure how much it impacts SE30’s but extra fuel weight is a major bad deal for an SM. Most SM drivers/teams will completely drain the tank after a session (via a fuel sample port) and only add in what is needed for the next session + 1 gallon. I heard somewhere that every extra 15-to-20lbs is equal to a 1hp loss… An average US Gallon is 6.073lbs! I’m just sayin’.

I’m barely covering my costs on this group buy, but I’d like to see this class progress without stepping on the landmines that SM did many many yrs ago. I say embrace spec fuel and (not that I know anything) get ready for more compliance stuff to come in an attempt to keep the racing close.

NEW PRODUCT LISTING FOR THE GROUP BUY: www.weekend-racer.com/se30-group-buy-fue...mple-port-p_608.html

#107

On a 9 to one motor, you can tune for 87 octane and usually pick up power because the fuel runs hotter than 93…and in our motors, you want all the combustion heat you can have. CB

#108

Guys just to share a little past fuel testing experience.

As some of you know I also race in SCCA Nationals in Touring3. Nationals require periodic fuel testing and the Runoffs have spec fuel (per the Runoffs supplemental regulations).

  1. My experience is the price always goes up when it’s a spec fuel.
  2. Last year at the Runoffs, I did the test day using the spec fuel (100 octane with tracer, $9/gal) after pumping as much fuel as would pump out with the stock pump. Keep in mind we normally just run premium pump gas (not bought at the track) for SCCA events. Ran the 3 or 4 (I forget the total) test day sessions using the spec fuel. End of the test day, test the fuel - fail. Pump out tank again, add 5 gallons of spec fuel, run the first qualifying session; test fuel again - fail again. Pump out tank again, add 5 more gallons, run 2nd qualifying, test fuel again … fail. Pump out tank again, put 5 more gallons in, run 3rd qualifying get called in to tech and pass fuel. Luckily those failed tests were all self tests and I didn’t get called in for a tech requested test until after the 3rd qualifying. I’m not doing the test day this year and understandably very worried about passing fuel tech during early qualifying (2nd session will be the coolest part of the day).

My reason for sharing this is not to stir up trouble, just so people can be properly prepared and realize that one flush & fill is not likely to cut it. Hopefully the SpecE30 guys won’t experience any many cleansing cycles as I did going from 93 to 100 octane. I also hope for you that your fuel will be available from the actual pump so it’s easy & quick for you to get fuel. At the Runoffs, spec 93 octane was not in the track pumps/tanks and my SSB teammates had to use 93 which in a mini tanker truck that only the staff could pump from to your cans and there were always lines to get fuel.

Sean will be there running our SE30, I’ll be running the T3 car in HC2 for the weekend but will for sure be around to visit with my SE30 pals.

Best of luck to everyone!

By the way, will there be free self testing available? (IMHO required for single event spec fuel requirements)

#109

I have heard it said that there is slightly more energy in lower octane fuel, but I have never found any data to back up that assertion. I do know that with an increase in octane the flame propagation is slower, as well as the resistance to self ignition from compression. To fully utilize the energy available in higher octane it fuel you have to get the compression ratio higher than can be legally done on a Spec E30 engine and advance the timing to compensate for the slower flame propagation (also illegal).

I completely “off base” but…

As I understand it, the most beneficial fuel additive would be nitromethane, but that would require increasing the fuel delivery rate, which is illegal. So it seems to me that “spec fuel” is an attempt to penalize racers with illegal motors or to give an advantage to those with illegal motors tuned for that fuel. Seems to me it would be better to find ways of weeding out illegal mods.

#110

I think Jim is dead nuts right on this one! I’ve withdrawn my entry from the Nationals, but I do see this fuel thing as treating a symptom and not the problem.

Ignoring flame propagation, there are two factors that influence power output, relative to fuel, as I understand it. The first is octane and what most enthusiast seem to focus on. Octane, however, is irrelevant if your engine isn’t knock limited and the ignition system is not capable of increasing timing to take advantage of the better pre-ignition resistance of higher octane fuels. Our engines are not knock limited and timing is factory tuned to run on ~89 octane fuel. To take advantage of a higher octane fuel, a competitor would need to alter the ignition system in some illegal manner.

The second factor is the energy of particular fuels. From what I understand, energy content is inversely proportional to the specific gravity of fuel. Although the specific gravity varies between regional blends and changes as gasoline cocktails change throughout the year, the specific gravity of pump gas is ~.760. Some race fuels have a specific gravity as low as .695. Think of it like this, a lower specific gravity means the fuel has more energy producing chemical compounds.

In theory, a race fuel with a lower specific gravity would make more power than a higher octane fuel, independent of octane, while keeping engine tuning and timing constant. That being said, I have no experience with race fuels and don’t intend to spend $10 a gallon for fuel in the future to find out. Doesn’t race gas have a unique smell anyway?

I think the big problem here is with racers altering their ignition system/DME to take advantage of higher octane pump gas. There is illegal power to be had from altering factory tuning to take advantage of 93 octane fuel. The Spec E30 rules already have provisions for fuel and fuel testing is possible with out modifying our cars. If the tech inspectors would like to inspect fuel, why can’t they just syphon fuel out of our tanks? Testing fuel, to make sure we are all running the same fuel is an over reaction to a problem I really haven’t seen. Opening DMEs for inspection and testing fuel that smells “fishy” is good enough and will prevent racers from using illegal fuel.

#111

[quote=“jlucas” post=59300]Guys just to share a little past fuel testing experience.

As some of you know I also race in SCCA Nationals in Touring3. Nationals require periodic fuel testing and the Runoffs have spec fuel (per the Runoffs supplemental regulations). [/quote]
This is the part that I believe we are missing.
I don’t see how the single-sourcing of fuel and specification of it’s octane grade can be allowed per our current rules.

#112

[quote=“Z3SpdDmn” post=59304]
I don’t see how the single-sourcing of fuel and specification of it’s octane grade can be allowed per our current rules.[/quote]

I agree! We already have a spec fuel that we can get almost anywhere. Just enforce the rules…

#113

I think Jim is dead nuts right on this one! I’ve withdrawn my entry from the Nationals, but I do see this fuel thing as treating a symptom and not the problem.

Ignoring flame propagation, there are two factors that influence power output, relative to fuel, as I understand it. The first is octane and what most enthusiast seem to focus on. Octane, however, is irrelevant if your engine isn’t knock limited and the ignition system is not capable of increasing timing to take advantage of the better pre-ignition resistance of higher octane fuels. Our engines are not knock limited and timing is factory tuned to run on ~89 octane fuel. To take advantage of a higher octane fuel, a competitor would need to alter the ignition system in some illegal manner.[/quote]
As I recall, the recommended fuel for a 325i/is is 87 octane, which would appropriate for the stock compression ratio of 8.8:1. An engine with a head milled to the legal max and with a max legal overbore will wind up right at 9:1, which might suggest the use of 89 octane fuel. My engine is built to the legal max and does prefer 89, but on the dyno it doesn’t benefit from 93 octane fuel. I might if I could advance spark timing, but there is no legal way to do that.

#114

Octane can be any number that will prevent detonation.

The only thing will that will improve power is getting more air into the motor. Now, we can’t do that so people are using fuels that add oxygen, hence oxygenated fuels. They have been around for at least 5 years (that I know of, probably much longer) and originally surfaced in SCCA Spec Miata. They are illegal in SCCA. Stopping the practice is admiral but, as I said before, you must give people time to implement rules changes. That is why most major rule changes in SCCA are effective on the first of the year.

As I and others have said, you don’t need more rules, you need to enforce the ones you have, and, above all, stick to the book. Chuck

#115

Anyone have a link to the best Mid Ohio track map with turn names and numbers??

Edit: got one!

#116

Guys, seriously, this isn’t that big of a deal. Bring your cans to the track and fill them up there. I was at the nationals in Ohio in 2007 and 2008, there was no huge fuel line, just get there early and fill your cans. And I think you can just take a hose clamp off at the fuel pressure regulator to provide the sample. These NASA guys are usually unpaid volunteers, don’t make their life any harder than it needs to be. Show up, adhere to the rules and have fun.

#117

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeRQD0tK8h0

#118

The entry list was updated today and we are now down to 22. Before we were much closer to 30. I know of one more entry making the count to 23. What happened???

http://www.nasachampionships.com/2011entrylist.html

SpecE30 Anthony Magagnoli KY BMW 325is
SpecE30 Simon Hunter IN BMW 325i
SpecE30 Michael Osborne KY BMW 325is
SpecE30 Loren Trefethen CA BMW 330
SpecE30 Stephen DeVinney GA BMW 325is
SpecE30 Bennett McMicking CA BMW E30
SpecE30 Kishantha Galappatti NJ BMW 325i
SpecE30 Team FAST tech OH BMW 325is
SpecE30 Robert Grace AL BMW Spec E30
SpecE30 Cameron Bullard OH BMW 325i
SpecE30 Fred Switzer SC BMW 325
SpecE30 Sean Curran NJ bmw 325is
SpecE30 Matt (GSS Racing 2) Harness AL BMW 325is
SpecE30 Robert Gagliardo VA BMW 325is
SpecE30 Julio Palacio GA BMW 325i
SpecE30 Eric Palacio GA BMW 325i
SpecE30 Ron (Team GSS Racing) Harness CA BMW Spec E30
SpecE30 Virgil R.(Rick) Mariani VA BMW 325IS
SpecE30 Andrew Zimmermann NJ BMW 325I
SpecE30 Carter Hunt NC BMW 325i
SpecE30 Jonathan Allen PA bmw 325i
SpecE30 John Trefethen CA BMW E30

#119

My money is on KraZman Cameron!

#120

i had to bail due to motor problems and not enough time to get everything done that needed doing. really bummed that i can’t be there, one of the harder decisions i’ve made in recent years. hope everyone has fun and keeps it all together long enough to cross the finish line!