Yet another "spec" exhaust problem

#1

To add to the continuing debate on the poor build quality, poor communications, poor delivery time, and poor payment options we are presented with another issue.

Dave Reed received a “new” exhaust from the required supplier and we immediately saw material differences in the design of the exhaust. Did the requirement change? What exactly is spec if the supplier changes the design? Does this render the older systems illegal? Are the new systems legal?

The slip fit at the collector is now a 3 bolt flange, a material change in the design of the exhaust. Additionally the flange, is welded 180deg upside down. See photo for details, the bolt and flange contact the transmission brace, a very poor design.

What I offer, and I am echoing both norcal and socal is the following.

  1. Specify muffler by part number
  2. Specify collector by part number (Midnight Oil has identified a Magnaflow part number that will work)
  3. Specify tubing requirements
  4. Specify where the muffler should be in the system (distance from collector)

Just because we’re a captive audience doesn’t mean we have to suffer through this time and again.

Flame suit on…

#2

Man I would have loved a 3 bolt flange at that location for my Spec exhaust. I spent 2 hours getting the center slip fit and U bolt connection off when I changed out the gas tank. I agree that we should all be getting the same exhaust.

#3

I’ve found it easier to just unbolt from the exhaust manifold. Six nuts and the downtubes are free. Recommend you have replacement nuts though.

#4

Clocking the flange is pretty important too… :0)
A better solution is to flare both ends and use a floating flange but what do I know?

#5

the muffler used in the “spec” exhaust is from Summit part #630812 and is nothing special, just a run of the mill “bullet” muffler

#6

This is an AWESOME race series! But…it is an AWESOME race series that needs an immediate solution to this ongoing problem…NOW! Please powers that be, fix this NOW. I too am trying to rebuild my car and plan to start helping a buddy in a couple weeks put his car together.

Please let us do as VM says above, or give us another solution, but we need it now.

#7

I suspect the flange is a change inspired by conversations between Paul and myself last year.

One of the problems with the original spec exhaust was trying to get it off the car and the other was when it unintentionally came off the car. Bolted flanges before or after the collector would solve this. I favor flanges where the collector mates to the down tubes, but a single flange after the collector works also. In the later case the collector can be welded to the down tubes to prevent inadvertent disconnection.

#8

I read in the rules where if you trailer the car to the track you have to run the spec exhaust, but if you drive it you can run either the spec exhaust or the factory (or oem equivalent) exhaust. This rule seems a bit odd to me. Why make a differentiation between people that trailer vs people that drive? Is there an advantage to the oem system?

I’m just curious since the topic has come up.

#9

Technically the Spec exhaust shouldn’t be driven on the street at all as it has no catalytic converters. Removing the cats is illegal so I would assume it is to avoid any liabilities. No way the OEM system with cats is an advantage.

#10

The spec exhaust is dirt cheap and i found the payment and order method to be no more than a minor irritation. The only problems i had with my exhaust were that it was half an inch short so i couldnt seat the slip joints all the way and i couldnt put the factory trans skid plate back on because the exhaust was in the way. Unless we can buy the muffler and have the exhaust made by a local shop for a lot cheaper we should keep the supplier and one of the se30 rule maker can call him about design changes. My exhaust also has a 3 bolt flange after the Y.

#11

[quote=“the Shoe” post=54683]This is an AWESOME race series! But…it is an AWESOME race series that needs an immediate solution to this ongoing problem…NOW! Please powers that be, fix this NOW. I too am trying to rebuild my car and plan to start helping a buddy in a couple weeks put his car together.

Please let us do as VM says above, or give us another solution, but we need it now.[/quote]

I am also in the process of building another SE30. I have my fingers crossed this exhaust debate will finally go in the right direction.

I agree with Walter, spec the parts, and allow us to install. If you don’t weld or don’t know a buddy that can help, any muffler shop can assemble an exhaust for you for around $100. And they will likely do it while you wait.

Kevin, do you still have the exhaust that I sold you with your car?

#12

this was done merely to allow people to build their car in stages with stage 1 involving driving it to the track. There is no performance advantage in the stock exhaust, given that it includes a Cat and a more-sound-deadening muffler.
thanks,
bruce

[quote=“gte024h” post=54696]I read in the rules where if you trailer the car to the track you have to run the spec exhaust, but if you drive it you can run either the spec exhaust or the factory (or oem equivalent) exhaust. This rule seems a bit odd to me. Why make a differentiation between people that trailer vs people that drive? Is there an advantage to the oem system?

I’m just curious since the topic has come up.[/quote]

#13

ugh i am just about to start this process, I have the exhaust in the box but its the old style. I think I will have it welded up.I would hate to have it fall off the collector at the track.

#14

I support Walter’s comments and would think that the regulation should describe the Spec exhaust System in detailed engineering terms including meterials, and specify the Summitt muffler as is, so as not to make the current exhausts redundant.

A single supplier is a single point of failure.

While I suspect the supplier is a really nice guy and deserves our respect, when something is this glaringly inefficient and inadequate it should be addressed with a solution that is fair to new competitors and as importantly to people already with the current system in place.

Kieran

#15

Few issues,
#1: Changing now would create a world of hurt for all of those that have already purchased the “spec” exhaust.
#2: My understanding, even though the rules are pretty clear to the contrary, is that you can chose to run either the OEM exhaust or spec exhaust regardless whether or not you tow or drive to the track. That would only be fair.
#3: Allowing someone to outsource the parts (ie, summit glasspack) and have an exhaust shop do the rest of the install, could create concern over one exhaust system versus another producing more horsepower. Experienced exhaust builders know how to find 1-2hp with a bend here and not one there or how the bend is made. That takes away from the equality or at least the comfort KNOWING there is equality.

Finally, if it aint broke, don’t fix it. Yes, there may be some minor fitment issues, but working together as a series, we can resolve these issues without making a drastic change. Why do we wanna turn this into NASCAR, meaning “If it aint broke, fix it till it is”. :stuck_out_tongue:

#16

I got the quote for $260. That isn’t exactly dirt cheap considering what you are getting. Dirt cheap quality maybe. I haven’t read anyone having a good experience fitting this thing on?

My cage builder can fab me an exhaust for $107 while the car is there. This includes the fart can.

Hell, I’d be happy gutting the cat, keeping everything stock and throwing a cheapo muffler on the back for like $50, unless I wanted to charge myself to demo the converter. :wink:

#17

[quote=“mcmmotorsports” post=54790]Few issues,
#1: Changing now would create a world of hurt for all of those that have already purchased the “spec” exhaust.
#2: My understanding, even though the rules are pretty clear to the contrary, is that you can chose to run either the OEM exhaust or spec exhaust regardless whether or not you tow or drive to the track. That would only be fair.
#3: Allowing someone to outsource the parts (ie, summit glasspack) and have an exhaust shop do the rest of the install, could create concern over one exhaust system versus another producing more horsepower. Experienced exhaust builders know how to find 1-2hp with a bend here and not one there or how the bend is made. That takes away from the equality or at least the comfort KNOWING there is equality.

Finally, if it aint broke, don’t fix it. Yes, there may be some minor fitment issues, but working together as a series, we can resolve these issues without making a drastic change. Why do we wanna turn this into NASCAR, meaning “If it aint broke, fix it till it is”. :P[/quote]

  1. No it wouldn’t since the new spec as Kieran stated whould revolve around the current design.

  2. Towing or driving to the track is irrelevant at this point, again nothing changes since the “new” spec would only differ with respect to sourcing the parts yourself.

  3. Again I defer to Kieren, a well written spec would cover this - these are low rpm single cam engines, you wouldn’t get anything over what we have using the SAME components that we have.

The only problem we need to solve is the supply chain not any possible cheating. There has been enough time past that it has become clear that the current solution is not working.

#18

re #2 the goal is to have everyone using the spec exhaust. The allowance for the OEM exhaust, only for those who drive to the track is just a concession to those who are in the earlier stages of their build and want to keep their cars somewhat street-legal. That puts them at a performance disadvantage. Why would someone who has advanced to the stage of trailering their car want to use an OEM exhaust?
bruce

[quote=“mcmmotorsports” post=54790]Few issues,
#1: Changing now would create a world of hurt for all of those that have already purchased the “spec” exhaust.
#2: My understanding, even though the rules are pretty clear to the contrary, is that you can chose to run either the OEM exhaust or spec exhaust regardless whether or not you tow or drive to the track. That would only be fair.
#3: Allowing someone to outsource the parts (ie, summit glasspack) and have an exhaust shop do the rest of the install, could create concern over one exhaust system versus another producing more horsepower. Experienced exhaust builders know how to find 1-2hp with a bend here and not one there or how the bend is made. That takes away from the equality or at least the comfort KNOWING there is equality.

Finally, if it aint broke, don’t fix it. Yes, there may be some minor fitment issues, but working together as a series, we can resolve these issues without making a drastic change. Why do we wanna turn this into NASCAR, meaning “If it aint broke, fix it till it is”. :P[/quote]

#19

[quote=“leggwork” post=54808]Why would someone who has advanced to the stage of trailering their car want to use an OEM exhaust?

[/quote]

…because if fits properly.

I understand the intent and I agree, but other very sucessful spec series do not have a spec exhaust, like Spec Miata. Miatas have a more modern 4 valve per cylinder DOHC higher reving motor, which would benifit greater then ours from major exhuast r&d, but none of the top guys spend more then $300 on their exhuast. (I was quoted $300 from paul for my new exhaust) Just specing a collector, exhaust diameter and exit location, I would wager we will control engine output with regard to the exhaust better then we currently do with the huge dips in the quality of the spec exhaust.

I plan on running my stock system until this gets resolved. I really do not appreciate being grossly overcharged for something with quality that is way below industry standard.

#20

To add to the thread, I had vmwerks weld my exhaust together as well (they did an AWESOME job). I had the old style it seems and the clamps were a PIA. I had to be very very careful where I cut the down tube and even then it was a dicy clamp fit. Adding the welding costs to the exhaust costs make it a semi-expensive exhaust. I would have rather just bolted on a fully welded part from vmwerks ready-to-go.

We are also building another SE30 (#41) :slight_smile: and are about to buy the PP exhaust… Is this “new” style a bigger pain now ?