Yet another "spec" exhaust problem

#21

dgorman

Well… there shouldn’t be a “newer” style. What’s the point of a spec exhaust if it is a moving target. :slight_smile: the flange is supposed to be a “fix” for the slip joint which we have always welded. However the flange is a poor response and also poorly executed. IMO the real issue is being held captive when there is a viable alternative. AND there is no reason not to implement.

leggwork

We are not calling for a change to the spec. The exhaust will remain as is so why the resistance? Just to be difficult? How can opening up an individual to obtaining his or her own parts a bad thing? As long as the specification is well written it will be easy to enforce and even easier to comply with. We aren’t looking for loopholes or new ways to take advantage. You can still use the OEM exhaust to drive to the track if you want to. There is nothing that says that will change.

#22

Agreed :slight_smile:

#23

[quote=“mikeski38” post=54810][quote=“leggwork” post=54808]
I understand the intent and I agree, but other very sucessful spec series do not have a spec exhaust, like Spec Miata. [/quote]
Apples and oranges. SM doesn’t have a spec exhaust because they failed to spec one early enough in the class’ growth curve and now it is too late.

[quote]
Miatas have a more modern 4 valve per cylinder DOHC higher reving motor, which would benifit greater then ours from major exhuast r&d, but none of the top guys spend more then $300 on their exhuast. (I was quoted $300 from paul for my new exhaust) [/quote]
The top guys DO spend more than that. Springfield Dyno’s exhaust is $295 at SafeRacer. Because of continual development, the 2011 SD is betterr than the 2009 and way better than the 2007.

While I am in favor of specifying the components and methods, I don’t think there is anything approaching highway robbery here.

#24

[quote=“mcmmotorsports” post=54790]Few issues,

#3: Allowing someone to outsource the parts (ie, summit glasspack) and have an exhaust shop do the rest of the install, could create concern over one exhaust system versus another producing more horsepower. Experienced exhaust builders know how to find 1-2hp with a bend here and not one there or how the bend is made. That takes away from the equality or at least the comfort KNOWING there is equality.

". :P[/quote]

Thank you for bringing up what is one of the issues. The “Spec” exhaust we are getting, are NOT all the same. We had three “Spec” exhausts next to each other at a recent build project (working on several existing Spec E30 at the same time) And we could see that the three were very different. They were all bought about 12 months apart, and clearly one of the exhausts was going to be putting out less because of how the bends were crimped and one of them had much smoother bends. thus there probably was a 1-2 hp difference as you describe.

So if the current “spec” exhausts produced over the last three years are not IDENTICLE anyway than why not either create a second producer so we have 2 sources or SPEC the exhaust parts and dimensions and let us build them so we are not handicaped waiting for an exhaust that is difficult to install and may need modifications to “actually fit” anyway and will probably inherently have a 1-2 hp difference anyway.

Still love this series and will promote it as the place to be!

#25

[quote=“the Shoe” post=54819][quote=“mcmmotorsports” post=54790]Few issues,

#3: Allowing someone to outsource the parts (ie, summit glasspack) and have an exhaust shop do the rest of the install, could create concern over one exhaust system versus another producing more horsepower. Experienced exhaust builders know how to find 1-2hp with a bend here and not one there or how the bend is made. That takes away from the equality or at least the comfort KNOWING there is equality.

". :P[/quote]

Thank you for bringing up what is one of the issues. The “Spec” exhaust we are getting, are NOT all the same. We had three “Spec” exhausts next to each other at a recent build project (working on several existing Spec E30 at the same time) And we could see that the three were very different. They were all bought about 12 months apart, and clearly one of the exhausts was going to be putting out less because of how the bends were crimped and one of them had much smoother bends. thus there probably was a 1-2 hp difference as you describe.

So if the current “spec” exhausts produced over the last three years are not IDENTICLE anyway than why not either create a second producer so we have 2 sources or SPEC the exhaust parts and dimensions and let us build them so we are not handicaped waiting for an exhaust that is difficult to install and may need modifications to “actually fit” anyway and will probably inherently have a 1-2 hp difference anyway.

Still love this series and will promote it as the place to be![/quote]

Wow - very interesting. Sounds like spec is getting down to “must be round and silver and run the length of the car attached to the downpipe in some manner…” :slight_smile: Yes, we too still love the series and continue to promote it as well.

#26

Well, I’ll be rockin’ the OEM system cat and all at the next event, I expect to be slow being my first weekend in a SE30, but I am interested to see the power difference, I bet it will not be noticable.

#27

Hi Walter,
perhaps you are reading my response to the earlier post wrong (or I see another post where something was attributed to me that I didn’t say) - I was just clarifying what our current rule is intended for, to address what mcmmotorsports was saying. Your arguments have merit and this issue is being discussed amongst the regional series directors.
thanks,
bruce

[quote=“vmwerks” post=54815]
leggwork

We are not calling for a change to the spec. The exhaust will remain as is so why the resistance? Just to be difficult? How can opening up an individual to obtaining his or her own parts a bad thing? As long as the specification is well written it will be easy to enforce and even easier to comply with. We aren’t looking for loopholes or new ways to take advantage. You can still use the OEM exhaust to drive to the track if you want to. There is nothing that says that will change.[/quote]

#28

The Shoe is starting to catch me in the number of posts so I thought I would chime in, just to keep pace!

Is all this bantering back and forth falling on deaf ears or are we making some progress with the people that need to hear this. I have seen 4 SpecE30 exhausts and they are all different and all need some amount of bending and welding to fit correctly which is an added cost. Competition usually creates a better product why is this any different than camber plates, sway bars or roll cages.

#29

[quote=“leggwork” post=54834]Hi Walter,
perhaps you are reading my response to the earlier post wrong (or I see another post where something was attributed to me that I didn’t say) - I was just clarifying what our current rule is intended for, to address what mcmmotorsports was saying. Your arguments have merit and this issue is being discussed amongst the regional series directors.
thanks,
bruce

[quote=“vmwerks” post=54815]
leggwork

We are not calling for a change to the spec. The exhaust will remain as is so why the resistance? Just to be difficult? How can opening up an individual to obtaining his or her own parts a bad thing? As long as the specification is well written it will be easy to enforce and even easier to comply with. We aren’t looking for loopholes or new ways to take advantage. You can still use the OEM exhaust to drive to the track if you want to. There is nothing that says that will change.[/quote][/quote]

leggwork thanks for the clarification, my apologies

poppy - the powers that be do listen and are listening. I am hoping that my thread will serve to sway the argument towards allowing more freedom along the lines of what I listed out. I don’t think having another vendor solves the ongoing problems with fitment and availability.

#30

I am in the process of building a car. I just called Paul but the number was disconnected, then I found the new number (the rules have a number that at least works), but I got a VM and I am not sure it was Paul because the message is generic. I am reading he’s on vacation or whatever?

Guys, Walter is correct, this is the silliest thing I have ever heard of. I feel we should be able to replicate the exhaust w/o having to serialize behind someone 1/2 across the country. The requirements to replicate one of these exhausts is not hard. If the exhausts are not even the same, then the entire point of standardizing on a vendor is moot. I don’t blame Paul. I am sure he’s awesome and works his ass off. I blame the rules for being so silly.

I will just pull the exhaust off our other spec car and have a shop replicate it.

In the future, I would like to see that exhaust is open. Other spec classes have it open and seem to do fine. If people feel that leaves an opening for a spending war then fine, at least spec the off the shelf parts (muffler) and dimensions and we can take it to any simple muffler shop to get it done.

#31

Just run your stock exhaust for now. I ran mine my first weekend and didn’t seem to suffer any ill effects. Power was good, and I could hear after the sessions. Plus, added bonus, my brother has my car at a laguna seca 93 dB day right now and is enjoying the hell out of it!

#32

What was the end result of all this? Is Paul still the only person I can contact to get a Spec Exhaust, or can we replicate the exhaust using the parts that are described earlier in this thread?

#33

Pauls is still the only place. There have been more recent threads here suggesting the fitment is much improved.

#34

Paul is the place. I talked to him today re. getting exhaust parts because my old system got bent up. Be advised the contact info for Paul in “Links” is old. New contact info:
Paul(at) PooreSports (dot) com
(267) 374-8365.

I’ve contacted Mike Mills to get the info in “Links” updated.

#35

Guys, Thanks for the info, i’ve sent him an email.

#36

[quote=“silence” post=63934]Guys, Thanks for the info, i’ve sent him an email.[/quote]If you don’t get a reply after a couple days, give him a call. You will probably get voicemail and that’s ok, but be persistant and ultimately get him on teh phone.

Paul’s a great guy and we’ve had number of interesting long conversations, but there’s a protocol in distracting him from all of his cool e30 projects. And now that you know what the protocol is, success will be yours.

Tomorrow we’ll discuss the protocol in talking to one’s wife such that she is duped into believing that maybe you really are sensitive, and also that you care about the neighbors, and what the name of somebody’s husband was at some party last year.

#37

Paul prefers the phone. hint hint :whistle:

#38

Has it dawned on anyone that having a spec exhaust with a controlled supplier is not the problem? The problem is Paul and the professionalism of his business. A legitimate business would have a website, have a phone number that doesn’t get cut off, have an Email, have better communication responsibility, better shipping response, better payment options, better spec repeatability and quality. Why would NASA subject their organization to this? There’s no doubt that new builders and existing drivers with damage have missed events because of Paul. Who is this Paul anyway? How did he get this Monopoly from NASA? What does NASA get out of it? Why is NASA so resistant to 2nd source like any other responsible company on the planet?

#39

It isn’t NASA at all… it’s the person who picked this guy and refuses to listen to the racers. Personally I’m through with the supplier… his last name says it all. I was going to put up with shit workmanship, crappy delivery times and overall BAD HORRIBLE communications.

I had to post this orignally due to the ONE thing that I was told was the REASON why we had to put up with all the bullshit, “It’s a spec exhaust and must all be the same”. Well we’ve received 4 different designs so where’s the spec?

Years ago when this mess started I offered to make the exhausts for the guys out here. I TRIED very hard to work with Paul but it ended up that I HAD to buy the crappy homemade on a kitchen table collector and some bent tubes from him… I could source the muffler locally. The cost was higher than if I just bought the junk directly from the supplier, WTF?

Then I figured ok I’ll buy 5 or 6 and stock them for the local guys and EAT profit just so we’d have some available. I was told that I could NOT buy them at the time since I had to prove I had a SpecE30 to put it on… My argument was that at the time I was the ONLY builder of the spec cars and as the series founder here on the West Coast I should be given some leeway.

BOTTOM LINE:

What I think is the best for the RACERS is to spec the muffler, tubing size and there is a collector readily available on the OPEN market that works just fine. Get this single source shit out of the way this isn’t the SCCA for Christs sake.

#40

I contacted him via email. He responded within a few days, we traded a few emails. I sent payment via paypal, and received the exhaust in about 3 weeks… it was a painless process.
I have yet to install it.