What fluids does everybody run?

#6

Someone with dyno experience chimes in. Thanks Richard.

Yes, lube oil is like religion, says as much in the series of articles that John Martin wrote for us at the TDR/Geno’s.

RP

#7

I have a page on my website of links to oil stuff. I went there looking for a link to a very long thread at the Pelican parts forums started by a smart guy by the name of Navarro, but I didn’t find the link. So if you go there and do a search for Navarro or Brad Penn, you’ll find it.

The web page below also has links to the TDR articles that Robert is talking about. Note, however that the TDR articles are oriented on diesel oils and that world went thru some changes in the same time frame that those articles were being written. So oils discussed in the article that might have had the CI+ cert that allowed lots of ZDDP, months later had the CJ cert that didn’t allow much. I tried some the the TDR oils and then sent them to Blackstone for analysis and got surprised by the results. Nonetheless, there’s lots of good info in the TDR articles, you just have to be aware of what cert the oil currently has, not what it used to have.

http://www.gress.org/Home/Cars/TrackTales/DIY/OilingSystem%20Improvements/Oil%20Debate/The%20Great%20Oil%20Debate.htm

#8

Scott, surprised in a good way or bad way?

RP

#9

[quote=“Patton” post=67267]Scott, surprised in a good way or bad way?

RP[/quote]

Bad. Any diesel oil rated for “mixed fleet” operations will have enough anti-foam additive for our high revving use. But about 5yrs ago oil OEMs were in the decision making process of going for the CJ spec or staying with the CI spec. At least that’s what I think the specs were called. The CI spec allowed more ZDDP. This decision was more marketing then engineering. The marketing department wanted to be able to emblazon the bottles with the decal of the latest spec, and the science linking ZDDP with failed cats, the reason later oil certs contain less ZDDP, was never strong. I’m not saying that the EPA is wrong, I’m just saying that there doesn’t seem to be much consensus.

I used a couple CI+ oils, Valvoline Premium Blue among them, and then sent them out for oil analysis. The results came back kinda low on ZDDP. The problem was that a year had gone by between the article being published in TDR and me buying the oil. Oil additive packages change routinely, and we’ve no good way to stay ahead of that other than oil analysis. Oil OEM websites can easily be a generation or two behind on their published oil specs. Vavoline was probably going after a CJ cert and therefore reduced the ppm of ZDDP in their oil. No big deal for a modern engine with little valves and light springs, but a problem for older 2 valve engines and their heavy springs.

IIRC the sweetspot for ZDDP is 1250-1400ppm. Less is ok for a 4 valve motor, more is ok for a break-in oil.

#10

As an Amsoil dealer I cannot resist the opportunity use a “lube thread” to do some selling.

I agree with everything that Ranger said. Particularly the parts about ZDDP and the fact that most oil companies formulas change regularly driven by mostly marketing more so than engineering. Honestly, I think that such decisions are driven mostly by accounting. Saving a couple of cents per quart of oil on a less expensive additive package can drop millions to the bottom line for the big oil companies.

I have been using Amsoil for more than 10 years. I got started based on the testimony of a fellow racer that stopped burning up 944 gear boxes once he switched to Amsoil gear lube. I was racing a 944 then too, tried Amsoil gear lube as well and liked it. In my early years with Amsoil I did dyno tests, studied many used oil analysis reports, even penned a technical article about synthetics. I have also read quite a few articles penned by Charles Navarro who is big on high levels of ZDDP for engines like ours. I agree with Charles findings but disagree with the brand he likes (and sells), Brad Penn AKA BP. BP has similar levels of ZDDP as Amsoil’s higher line oils but BP is a group II petroleum base stock. Amsoil uses a group IV PAO synthetic base stock which flows better when cold and is more stable at high (250-350F) temperatures. I have stuck with Amsoil as I believe we need the benefit that synthetics provide, after all of my study I remain convinced that they are committed to be a step better than the rest, and as a dealer I get incentives to use and sell it. I am admittedly and unabashedly biased.

I am currently running the 15W50 Dominator racing oil but plan to switch to the 10W30 racing oil. I don’t have the guts to try the 5W20. I do use the MTF in the tranny and 75W90 Severe Gear lube in the diff. I mentioned above that I have done some dyno testing and this combo of lubes does allow about 3-5 hp more to the wheels than common petroleum oils. I have not tested BP or Redline oils to see which combo provides the best HP to the ground. Some say that Redline delivers the most power but I honestly do not know.

The following link has some info on the racing oils;

http://www.amsoil.com/a/synthetic-motor-oil-engine-oil

The following links have info on the Tranny fluids and gear lubes respectively;

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtf.aspx

http://www.amsoil.com/a/synthetic-gear-oil

One more thing, I offer dealer cost to all Spec E30 racers and in some cases free shipping. PM to ask me how this works.

Don

#11

What do you all think about Rotella? I was told it had higher ZDDP than the usual off-the-shelf oils, but I haven’t done as much research as you guys clearly have!

#12

What do you think about Rotella?
Did you read the Oil report? Stop being “told,” do some research. Get facts from those that have spent money on oil samples.

As stated, oil is like religion, you’ll find confirmation of your choice, you’ll find dissention on your choice.

Don and Scott , thanks for the unbiased write-ups.

RP

#13

[quote=“Patton” post=67461]What do you think about Rotella?
[/quote]
It’s been a while since I was obsessed by oil but IIRC there are 3 flavors of Rotella and everyone seems to talk as if there are only 1. Of the 3 only 1 of them had decent levels of ZDDP, but the additive packages of the 3 could have changes several times since.

Related.

Oil certs and ZDDP. People talk as if the oil certifications of the last decade are directly linked to reduced levels of ZDDP. That’s not quite the way it went down tho. The oil certs that required reduced ZDDP only applied to the lighter wieghts and not to xW40 and thicker. The actual cause of reduced ZDDP in those oils was economic decisions by the oil mfr’s. Maybe ZDDP is expensive, or maybe there were savings in using the same additive package in xW50 as they used in xW30, I don’t know. As quick as I usually am to blame government meddling, this was an oil OEM call, not a bureacrat’s.

ZDDP and detergents. Oils need detergents in order to deal with the oxidents created during the combustion process. The more detergents, the longer you can run the oil. If you run low on detergents the oil will turn acidic and start chewing on metal. On the flip side, detergents aren’t slippery so the more detergent you have the less slippery stuff.

Most detergents are antagonistic with ZDDP. That is to say, they don’t like each other. How much they don’t like each other depends on the detergent. The reason this is important is that it prevents a direct comparison of ZDDP between oil types. For example, a common detergent is calcium. An oil that is high in calcium will need more ZDDP to provide anti-wear protection than an oil that has less calcium. Therefore you can’t simply compare an oil with 1200ppm ZDDP to an oil with 1300ppm ZDDP and call the latter better.

Oil is complicated, and everything that was true 6 months ago can’t be trusted to be true today. If someone wants to get all obsessed by oil and do the research themselves, more power to them. Me, I’ll just stick with the small group of oils that the smart guys like Navarro prefer and not make my brain hurt by trying to absorb all the details of the hundreds of other oil types.

#14

[quote=“Patton” post=67461]What do you think about Rotella?
Did you read the Oil report? Stop being “told,” do some research. Get facts from those that have spent money on oil samples.

As stated, oil is like religion, you’ll find confirmation of your choice, you’ll find dissention on your choice.

[/quote]

No reason to be snappy, particularly when you’re contradicting yourself in the process. I’m asking for opinions.

#15

Here’s an example of the kinda of stuff to read. This is by Navarro.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

When you see references to older engines having higher lube requirements than newer engines, old means 2 heavy valves, high spring pressure and non-roller rockers. Newer engines have lower anti-wear additive requirements.

#16

I’m thinking of going with Redline 75W90 for my rear diff and Redline 70W80 for my transmission. Thoughts?

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=133&pcid=4
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=45&pcid=7

#17

Redlines recommendations for BMWs.

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

I use D4ATF because I have red label trans.

#18

AFAIK all the Redline products are terrific. Not cheap tho. I have 8-10qts of their 20-50W race oil that I’d be up for selling.

#19

[quote=“Patton” post=67251]How much do you REALLY want to know about lube oils?

www.genosgarage.com
Technical Articles
Debunking Lube Oil Myths (TDR #55)
Analysis of Lube Oils (TDR #57)
Oils Version 2012 (TDR #76)

[/quote]

Just took the time to read these areticles. Well Done and thanks for sharing.

Don

#20

You can read everything there is about oil and all you will learn is that amsoil and redline are the best. I read alot. Depending on the oil weight one may be better than the other but it looked like redline is better 55% of the time. If you want to run cheap oil you need to read more. Oil is a lot cheaper if your motor doesn’t leak. I run redline 40wt race oil now. With the 3qt accumulator I use 8 or 9 quarts. I expect my 110$ worth of redline to be good for at least one season maybe two. I have a newly built bottom end and new oil pump so I never see below 68psi on the track. I’m sure I could safely go down to 30wt.

#21

RL doesn’t have a lot of detergent. Changing it twice a season might be better.

RL has such good High Temp Shear #'s (HTHS) that I agree, running oil a little on the thin side is probably fine.

#22

[quote=“turbo329is” post=67586]…all you will learn is that amsoil and redline are the best…

I expect my 110$ worth of redline to be good for at least one season maybe two. [quote]

The first statement is a bit over generalized. One example, Robert Pattons data showed that Amsoil’s “premium” 5W40 diesel oil was just OK. I also know that Amsoil also makes a few low end (and low priced) Group III oils that are just on par with any off the shelf “synthetic”. The point is, even premium brands have some lower level offerings.

Relative to two seasons on one batch of Redline - I wouldn’t do it. One season sure, but not two. Ranger correctly noted earlier that racing oils (essentially any brand) do not have adequate detergents and oxidation inhibitors for “extended drains”. Also even premium synthetics degrade over time due to moisture ingress.

Don

#23

[quote=“donstevens” post=67575][quote=“Patton” post=67251]How much do you REALLY want to know about lube oils?

www.genosgarage.com
Technical Articles
Debunking Lube Oil Myths (TDR #55)
Analysis of Lube Oils (TDR #57)
Oils Version 2012 (TDR #76)

[/quote]

Just took the time to read these areticles. Well Done and thanks for sharing.

Don[/quote]

Thanks Don. For the average Joe there is a takeaway from the article that says one thing.
For the racer and/or others that really care the takeaway is something entirely different.

You represent a good product with the Amsoil line and your unbiased responses earlier built trust in the products you represent.

Now, like Bratton and the NASCAR guys…lube oil is a free choice in our rules, how thin of a viscosity do you wish to use to chase a horsepower or two?

RP

#24

Let’s see:

Engine oil - A random mix of Mobil 1 and Catrol Syntec

Transmission - I have a bunch of left over MT90 from 6 years ago. Seems to be working ok when the overflow tube is attached to the transmission. Otherwise, it flows like a river out of the tube and all over the bottom of the car.

Rear end - I have no idea what is back there. Diff seeps ever so slightly with a wet mark near the vent and the diff breaks away appropriately.

#25

I’d always thought Rotella Syn had higher ZDDP numbers than most commercially available oils and thus would be a good choice for my SE30. Plus it’s cheap, so I don’t mind changing it often. I added some ZDDP for good measure.

I ran it this weekend for the first time around California Speedway. 30 secs of flat out running at top speed. Oil pressure remained above 60 the whole time, temps around ~223F.

Worryingly, the oil pressure at idle dropped to the high single digits on Saturday. To my horror, it dropped to literally ZERO rolling into the pits after Sunday’s race. Odd since I had good pressure during the race.