RL doesn’t have a lot of detergent. Changing it twice a season might be better.
RL has such good High Temp Shear #'s (HTHS) that I agree, running oil a little on the thin side is probably fine.
What fluids does everybody run?
donstevens
#22
[quote=“turbo329is” post=67586]…all you will learn is that amsoil and redline are the best…
I expect my 110$ worth of redline to be good for at least one season maybe two. [quote]
The first statement is a bit over generalized. One example, Robert Pattons data showed that Amsoil’s “premium” 5W40 diesel oil was just OK. I also know that Amsoil also makes a few low end (and low priced) Group III oils that are just on par with any off the shelf “synthetic”. The point is, even premium brands have some lower level offerings.
Relative to two seasons on one batch of Redline - I wouldn’t do it. One season sure, but not two. Ranger correctly noted earlier that racing oils (essentially any brand) do not have adequate detergents and oxidation inhibitors for “extended drains”. Also even premium synthetics degrade over time due to moisture ingress.
Don
Patton
#23
[quote=“donstevens” post=67575][quote=“Patton” post=67251]How much do you REALLY want to know about lube oils?
www.genosgarage.com
Technical Articles
Debunking Lube Oil Myths (TDR #55)
Analysis of Lube Oils (TDR #57)
Oils Version 2012 (TDR #76)
[/quote]
Just took the time to read these areticles. Well Done and thanks for sharing.
Don[/quote]
Thanks Don. For the average Joe there is a takeaway from the article that says one thing.
For the racer and/or others that really care the takeaway is something entirely different.
You represent a good product with the Amsoil line and your unbiased responses earlier built trust in the products you represent.
Now, like Bratton and the NASCAR guys…lube oil is a free choice in our rules, how thin of a viscosity do you wish to use to chase a horsepower or two?
RP
Foglght
#24
Let’s see:
Engine oil - A random mix of Mobil 1 and Catrol Syntec
Transmission - I have a bunch of left over MT90 from 6 years ago. Seems to be working ok when the overflow tube is attached to the transmission. Otherwise, it flows like a river out of the tube and all over the bottom of the car.
Rear end - I have no idea what is back there. Diff seeps ever so slightly with a wet mark near the vent and the diff breaks away appropriately.
priapism
#25
I’d always thought Rotella Syn had higher ZDDP numbers than most commercially available oils and thus would be a good choice for my SE30. Plus it’s cheap, so I don’t mind changing it often. I added some ZDDP for good measure.
I ran it this weekend for the first time around California Speedway. 30 secs of flat out running at top speed. Oil pressure remained above 60 the whole time, temps around ~223F.
Worryingly, the oil pressure at idle dropped to the high single digits on Saturday. To my horror, it dropped to literally ZERO rolling into the pits after Sunday’s race. Odd since I had good pressure during the race.
Ranger
#26
223 was measured where?
I did some looking around for Rotella ZDDP #'s and found a fair amount of conflict for 3 types of Rotella called T4, T5 and T6. But I also found this analysis that indicates a “medium” amount of ZDDP. Not great, but not awful either. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2330040#Post2330040
ZDDP doesn’t play into oil pressure under most circumstances. ZDDP is more about cam and rocker eccentric wear, and to a lesser extent cylinder/ring where. Bearings are lubricated “hydrodynamically” which is more a matter of keeping a “cushion” of oil flowing thru the bearing then it is a matter of coating the metal with an ablative layer of ZDDP.
Low oil pressure at idle is not terrific, but not a crisis either. As long as you’re getting better than 50psi at RL, I wouldn’t worry. 40psi at RL is a problem to be resolved after the next event or 3. 30psi at RL is pull over before you throw a rod.
priapism
#27
Hm, not sure where the sensor is.
Low oil pressure wouldn’t worry me, but ZERO is worrying for sure! I was running the Rotella T6, supposedly the good stuff. I think I’ll try the Redline, or go back to VR1.
donstevens
#28
OP probably was not really zero. The gauge probably does not read accurately with hot oil at low rpm. Plus the hydrodynamic barrier that Ranger mentioned is still there in bearings and between cam and followers. It takes a while (guessing maybe 10 seconds) even at zero OP before that boundary layer is pumped out. Just a quick blip of the throttle restores pressure.
A couple of things to think about = a couple of justifications to use synthetic oil in race engines.
A) If your oil temp gauge is reading 223 degrees that means the oil that is draining back from the valve train is probably well over 300F. Plus the oil that is in close contact with the exhaust valve stems/seals/guides, piston ring contact area is more like 425-450F. Turbo bearings and exhaust valves run even hotter but that does not apply here. Group II petroleum oils begin vaporizing and breaking down at 300F and above (see link below to see what happens at 400F and up). Granted, while the volume of oil in those areas is very small relative to the whole sump, the degradation of the oil from these high heat areas does affect then entire sump.
B) Cool down laps and idling in to paddock are actually pretty critical times relative to high temperature management. Under racing conditions the engine components mentioned above are hot (exhaust valves can be 1000F). But at full throttle they are being flooded with relatively fresh and relatively cool oil. They eventually reach steady state temperatures and everything is fine regardless of what type of oil is used. The minute the checker falls though, the flood of fresh cool oil drops significantly. The engine can actually temporarily run hotter exacerbating oil pressure drops and oil degradation. Thus, it is important to cool the car down properly maintaining 3000 rpm or so throughout the entire cool down lap and 2000 rpm or so in the pits/paddock.
Synthetic oils {and more specifically group IV (most Amsoil products and Mobil-1 Racing) and group V (Redline)} are more stable at those critical points and thus typically provides more consistent OP and protection at critical times. When you think of it in this perspective, $10/quart racing oil is cheap peace of mind.
Don
1980s Mobil-1 commercial. Back when Mobil-1 was the real deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beyNfMAQRlA
Patton
#29
Don, the next time you see Laura ask her about doing the Mobil 1 test in our kitchen for a 5th grade project.
On a side note, you should see the flow difference at 15 degrees (the coldest weather we saw that winter season).
RP
turbo329is
#30
[quote=“donstevens” post=67590][quote=“turbo329is” post=67586]
Relative to two seasons on one batch of Redline - I wouldn’t do it. One season sure, but not two. Ranger correctly noted earlier that racing oils (essentially any brand) do not have adequate detergents and oxidation inhibitors for “extended drains”. Also even premium synthetics degrade over time due to moisture ingress.
Don[/quote]
Keep in mind that my season is only 4 weekends this year and hopefully at least six next year. I know you southeast guys are running a lot more than that.
MrDomino
#31
After digging around under my car a bit I’m convinced that my tranny takes MTL. I have internal 17mm hex bolts and I don’t see a red or green label on the transmission so I’m almost certain that it’s one that uses MTL. I’m going to drain it tonight and make sure that the fluid smells terrible just to be sure.
MTL and diff oil smells terrible. Mein Gott.
donstevens
#32
I took some time today to do some more homework. I did find the oil thread on Pelican that Ranger referenced. It is now 95 pages and I lost track about 20 pages ago.
I must make a coreection to the above statements. I was wrong about BP being a group II base oil. It is a blend between Group II and Group III psuedo sysnhetic. I stand corrected.
Here are a couple Pelican links.
Don