This topic has been pretty well exhausted here and everywhere else. It was a very unfortunate incident and luckily everyone is okay. I’m not interested in getting down in the weeds of this particular incident, but since we’re all racers I think it is important to look at the bigger picture. Not everything is going to be black and white, right or wrong. I think the rule in question works well 9 times out of 10. More rules regarding who is entitled to what would likely only create more problems - and sometimes it truly doesn’t matter who is “right”. You’re not going to step out in front of a moving bus just because you have the “walk” sign at the cross-walk. If someone dive bombs going into T1 you’re not going to turn-in and get T-boned just because you’re allowed to and that space is “yours”. We’ve all been in positions where we put our nose where it doesn’t belong - and gotten away with it, and we’ve all been in places where we had to concede racing room that was “ours” to avoid incident. As a fellow racer said to me the other day, “are you racing to make a point, or to win?”
Video of my rollover
Rob, I’m not really sure that it has been exhausted. And although a little confrontational, I think Lateapex911 has a fair question. You might not want to get “down into the weeds,” but your earlier post raises an obvious question. You said:
[quote]Did I know the driver was there? Yes.
Did I know of the 3/4 rule beforehand? Yes.
Was my understanding of the rule used as a tool? No.[/quote]
I simply want to know: What did you think, or hope, was going to happen when you moved left?
When I moved left nothing happened, because no one was there, because I am a different Robert.
Cheers.
[quote=“RGrace” post=72937]When I moved left nothing happened, because no one was there, because I am a different Robert.
Cheers.[/quote]
I have an E30 shell that I have been putting together to run in Spec e30 and after watching the video I don’t think I am going to bother. Over the past couple of years I have raced ten or eleven Chump and LeMons races, more that 40 hours of seat time and I have personally had less contact in all of those races than took place in this race. I am not saying car has not been bumped and banged with other drivers. The rules that are in place for passing in Spec e30 seem pretty convoluted to me. I would not have put my car a risk with move that the red car made even if I have the rules in my favor. The red car should have pinched the white car slowly. He tracked out too wide in 3 and lost some momentum and didn’t want to be on the out side on turn five… having the cars all so evenly matched make it like a NASCAR restrictor plate race and you’re just waiting for the big one…
We’re the third largest race class in the nation. It would be a mistake to draw conclusions from one incident, one race and one thread.
What defines us is our community. In SpecE30, if you come off the track with trouble, within 30min you’re surrounded by smart guys with spare parts and tools ready to help you make it right.
You’re making this decision based on video of one incident??? :blink:
I’d rather race with these guys (experienced, educated and trained drivers) than the mostly zero background folks running the events you cite as “safer”. I think running a $10,000 car is a completely different mindset than racing a $500 POS with some safety equipment.
The other thing I keep pointing out to people who have never run a single NASA race, much less an E30 race is that there is a marked difference between racing with the front runners and being in the mid-pack or lower. Unless you are an alien like Grace or Skeen, you’re not going to be at the front right away. My car has been touched only once by another racer (some guy with Sri Lankan blood) once, and the tire mark on the bumper cleaned off. The intensity at the front will cause occasional contact, but I’d argue those guys are generally of a skill level that such accidental occurrences (and this whole deal really is about two people not reading the other correctly) will happen but are still rare.
If you believe you can race and never have a contact incident…perhaps TT is a better format for you.
[quote=“Lateapex911” post=72934]Rob, what happened to:
[quote]“I was PUNTED by the white car. The other racer wasn’t familiar with the rules and just hoped for the best.
It doesn’t work that way. If you race, do everyone a favor and read and comprehend the rules. …You probably think you know everything about racing, but you don’t…This situation could have EASILY been avoided if the other racer knew the rules. he was DQ’d, suspended for 2 races, and earned 6 points.”[/quote]
Your new post is quite a reversal from that ^ spiel, isn’t it.
[/quote]
Two posts here and you feel the need to stir the pot? I think comments made directly after a scary incident and those posted after several days of reflection can certainly be vastly different. I was just involved in a street accident this week (not my fault, and did not involve passing, 3/4 car widths or rule books). Of the 3 cars involved, the one with NO DAMAGE was driven by someone who flew off the handle upon exiting their vehicle. Adrenaline does that. I know to ignore it. I fully expected the tune to change in regards to this race incident after the dust had settled and the other video came online. I don’t think your lawyer-like, cross-examination “gotcha” post brings anything to the table. If you read the comments from all of us who actually race in this series they are all thoughtful and respectful. We’d ask you do the same, just as I keep my comments about Porsche driver stereotypes to a minimum.
This was an unfortunate incident that happened. These things occur in every series, in every class. It sucks when it does, but we are bigger than the incident and SpecE30 will emerge stronger because of it. To say this is somehow specific to SpecE30 or that what we are doing is more dangerous than any other racing is not fair. I have found all SpecE30 drivers i have met and raced with to be honest and fair competitors. I would go wheel to wheel with any one of them any day and not think twice about it. Yes ANY of them. Don’t judge us on one incident and because this got so much publicity. Judge us as guys who like to race hard, but care about each other and each others safety. I am finding more and more what a brotherhood SpecE30 really is. This is a great group of people and I am proud to be part of it.
The incident sucked, to be sure. Some of this comes down to people trying to muscle others around. Some people go for the brakes in such a situation. Some don’t. If, in a similar situation, you see the number 65 on the door and it is at a Southeast event, don’t bet on the brakes, either. If you go for the brakes every time somebody gives you the fade, you become a whipping boy for such behavior, and that isn’t fun. I can’t imagine how that incident is the trailing car’s fault, I really can’t. I’d just call it a racing incident.
At any rate, there isn’t going to be a satisfactory answer to this question to either driver involved I’m betting.
-Scott
[quote=“ddavidv” post=72951][quote=“Lateapex911” post=72934]Rob, what happened to:
[quote]“I was PUNTED by the white car. The other racer wasn’t familiar with the rules and just hoped for the best.
It doesn’t work that way. If you race, do everyone a favor and read and comprehend the rules. …You probably think you know everything about racing, but you don’t…This situation could have EASILY been avoided if the other racer knew the rules. he was DQ’d, suspended for 2 races, and earned 6 points.”[/quote]
Your new post is quite a reversal from that ^ spiel, isn’t it.
[/quote]
Two posts here and you feel the need to stir the pot? I think comments made directly after a scary incident and those posted after several days of reflection can certainly be vastly different. I was just involved in a street accident this week (not my fault, and did not involve passing, 3/4 car widths or rule books). Of the 3 cars involved, the one with NO DAMAGE was driven by someone who flew off the handle upon exiting their vehicle. Adrenaline does that. I know to ignore it. I fully expected the tune to change in regards to this race incident after the dust had settled and the other video came online. I don’t think your lawyer-like, cross-examination “gotcha” post brings anything to the table. If you read the comments from all of us who actually race in this series they are all thoughtful and respectful. We’d ask you do the same, just as I keep my comments about Porsche driver stereotypes to a minimum.
;)[/quote]
Just today I chatted two drivers back from the ledge after an incident in the uphill at LRP, where there was significant damage. EACH had a different story. I told them both to take a step back and give it bit before getting too wigged out. (Sadly I think no trailing video exists)
So, yea, I GET that people remember things differently, and can get very entrenched in their position at the time.
But the original poster went to a lot of trouble well after the incident to throw somebody, (Who in nearly every other sanctioning bodies rulebook, (aka “The norm”) would have been 100% in the right) under the bus and pretty much offered him up for public humiliation with the video and the “you don’t know what you’re doing” quotes at the end.
Listen, I know he’s buddies with the community, and the community has each others backs, so an outside guy coming in isn’t going to be popular. But it’s BECAUSE I’m an outsider that the question should resonate. I have no dog in this hunt. I’ve been racing a decent period of time, and have a very clean resume with lots of front of the pack hours. So the post count is irrelevant.
-He came in guns blazing about how he knew the rules and the other guy didn’t, and it was all the other guys fault for punting him. And he made that statement well after the incident, not right after.
-His U tube video gets massively one sided responses telling him that he’s racing in a different universe and in the universe the rest of us race in that move was just flat wrong and he was at fault, not the other way around.
-For SOME reason (???) NASA decides to take a second look, and reverses it’s position. Placing far more blame on him.
-Then he comes back and tells us he knew what he was doing, knew the other driver was there, he knew the 3/4 car rule … but no he didn’t intend to push him off the track.
-But he wants everyone to use this as a learning experience and to be vocal if they don’t like the rules.
Nothing adds up.
And he still has not answered if he knew he was there, and he kept moving over, yet didn’t intend to push him off the track, WHY did he do it???
I’m sorry if you don’t think it’s being respectful, but that question IS, you have to admit, the 800 pound gorilla in the room, and nobody seems to want the answer. Maybe it’s a king has no clothes deal?
I totally see how the racing can be great. Before I saw the incident part of the vid I was digging it. Good stuff.
But that incident and the actions and reasoning of that driver are very hypocritical.
Maybe you need to be an outsider to see it, and I mean no slight to the community or the racing in general.
(Although that 3/4 rule is wackdoodle, LOL)
Oh, and you can razz Porsche racers all you want, I’ve been out on the track at the Glen with Porsche instructors and I’ve passed and lapped faster in my little hamster powered 128Hp/10lb/ft car than 911s having double the power. There’s lots of fast cars in lots of circles that leave a lot on the table, shall we say, and the Porsche guys shouldn’t brag too loudly, LOL.)
You’re making this decision based on video of one incident??? :blink:
I’d rather race with these guys (experienced, educated and trained drivers) than the mostly zero background folks running the events you cite as “safer”. I think running a $10,000 car is a completely different mindset than racing a $500 POS with some safety equipment.
The other thing I keep pointing out to people who have never run a single NASA race, much less an E30 race is that there is a marked difference between racing with the front runners and being in the mid-pack or lower. Unless you are an alien like Grace or Skeen, you’re not going to be at the front right away. My car has been touched only once by another racer (some guy with Sri Lankan blood) once, and the tire mark on the bumper cleaned off. The intensity at the front will cause occasional contact, but I’d argue those guys are generally of a skill level that such accidental occurrences (and this whole deal really is about two people not reading the other correctly) will happen but are still rare.
If you believe you can race and never have a contact incident…perhaps TT is a better format for you.[/quote]
My comments are not directed against the drivers. I know you guys can drive. This is more a problem with the rules and what has evolved into a NASCAR style bumping and banging style racing. The Spec e30 community might expect this kind of contact but I was truly surprised at how much was going on. I am not in a dream world that I don’t think contact will happen but for it to be the norm is a bit much. My comment about driving many hours in Chump and LeMons was a statement how contact can be avoided even if the other drivers are not necessarily well trained…
Hey everyone, Tom Hall checking in. I guess its time for me to chime in since I’m the MA Compliance Director and I helped rule on this incident. There is no grey area in this incident it is simply a case of a driver not following the passing rules as stated in the CCR’s, whether or not the driver fully knew and understood those rules. Location on track, IE: entering a turn, on a straight, etc makes no difference. When an “overtaking car” is attempting to make a pass (side-by-side driving, overlapped ahead or behind, etc) he is obligated to give the “lead car” room to his / her line. The “lead car”, which was previously clear ahead, is only obligated to give 3/4 of a car width to the overtaking car. In other words the overtaking car has to be ready to go 2 wheels off in order to avoid contact with the car it is attempting to pass (or is driving side-by-side with, etc).
Soooo, in this incident the overtaking car (Jeff) is obligated to give the lead car (Rob) room to drive his line. Again, the lead car is only obligated to give the overtaking car 3/4 of a car width, on the left side of the track in this case. The overtaking car never went 2 wheels off, he simply "held his line" which is not acceptable under the rules. The correct thing for the overtaking car to do would have been to back out and allow the lead car to drive his desired line. Nothing else matters, not his position in the race, the class he is in (out of class racing), etc. the overtaking car must give room. If he gives room, goes 2 wheels off (clearly trying to give room) and there is still contact then fault could possibly shift to the lead car. However, that was not the case here, this is a clear cut classic case of a "punt resulting in damage", look up the penalty for that infraction and you'll probably want to avoid doing it, not to mention wanting to avoid causing serious damage and possible injury to a fellow racer.
Y’all would be amazed at how many racers I interview who don’t fully understand this rule. I’ve realized now that until I took on this position I really didn’t fully understand this rule and some of the other rules that are designed to keep us all safe and heading home from the track without damaged vehicles.
Not too many years ago the Spec E30 groups could have tight racing and a lot of fun without very many collisions. For some reason that seems to have changed and we are now having multiple and occasionally serious incidents at almost every race event.
If I could ask everyone to please read the CCR's again, there are some additions to rules as of this year. And after you've read them read them again, and the maybe another time or two. We all have to take on the responsibility to not only learn but internalize the rules, because when followed the racing is much safer IMHO.
Cheers.
[quote=“catsailor” post=72962]Hey everyone, Tom Hall checking in. I guess its time for me to chime in since I’m the MA Compliance Director and I helped rule on this incident. There is no grey area in this incident it is simply a case of a driver not following the passing rules as stated in the CCR’s, whether or not the driver fully knew and understood those rules. Location on track, IE: entering a turn, on a straight, etc makes no difference. When an “overtaking car” is attempting to make a pass (side-by-side driving, overlapped ahead or behind, etc) he is obligated to give the “lead car” room to his / her line. The “lead car”, which was previously clear ahead, is only obligated to give 3/4 of a car width to the overtaking car. In other words the overtaking car has to be ready to go 2 wheels off in order to avoid contact with the car it is attempting to pass (or is driving side-by-side with, etc).
Soooo, in this incident the overtaking car (Jeff) is obligated to give the lead car (Rob) room to drive his line. Again, the lead car is only [b]obligated to give the overtaking car 3/4 of a car width[/b], on the left side of the track in this case. [/quote]
I have read the CCR section in question several times.
Since the overtaking car dropped back, isn’t the lead car free to give the following car no room whatsoever in this case?
And if so, why was the leading car penalized for this incident?
[quote=“ddavidv” post=72951][quote=“Lateapex911” post=72934]Rob, what happened to:
[quote]“I was PUNTED by the white car. The other racer wasn’t familiar with the rules and just hoped for the best.
It doesn’t work that way. If you race, do everyone a favor and read and comprehend the rules. …You probably think you know everything about racing, but you don’t…This situation could have EASILY been avoided if the other racer knew the rules. he was DQ’d, suspended for 2 races, and earned 6 points.”[/quote]
Your new post is quite a reversal from that ^ spiel, isn’t it.
[/quote]
I don’t think your lawyer-like, cross-examination “gotcha” post brings anything to the table. If you read the comments from all of us who actually race in this series they are all thoughtful and respectful. We’d ask you do the same, just as I keep my comments about Porsche driver stereotypes to a minimum.
;)[/quote]
I dunno, I think the Porsche guy made a reasonable point.
[quote=“swolfe” post=72963][quote=“catsailor” post=72962]Hey everyone, Tom Hall checking in. I guess its time for me to chime in since I’m the MA Compliance Director and I helped rule on this incident. There is no grey area in this incident it is simply a case of a driver not following the passing rules as stated in the CCR’s, whether or not the driver fully knew and understood those rules. Location on track, IE: entering a turn, on a straight, etc makes no difference. When an “overtaking car” is attempting to make a pass (side-by-side driving, overlapped ahead or behind, etc) he is obligated to give the “lead car” room to his / her line. The “lead car”, which was previously clear ahead, is only obligated to give 3/4 of a car width to the overtaking car. In other words the overtaking car has to be ready to go 2 wheels off in order to avoid contact with the car it is attempting to pass (or is driving side-by-side with, etc).
Soooo, in this incident the overtaking car (Jeff) is obligated to give the lead car (Rob) room to drive his line. Again, the lead car is only [b]obligated to give the overtaking car 3/4 of a car width[/b], on the left side of the track in this case. [/quote]
I have read the CCR section in question several times.
Since the overtaking car dropped back, isn’t the lead car free to give the following car no room whatsoever in this case?
And if so, why was the leading car penalized for this incident?[/quote]
sage, once the white car was at the door, the red car had to give three quarter until either the red car got his rear bumper ahead of the white cars front bumper or the white car got his rear bumper ahead of the red cars front bumper.the white car did not lose his right to be there when he slipped a foot behind after getting to the door.
[quote=“cosm3os” post=72965][quote=“swolfe” post=72963][quote=“catsailor” post=72962]Hey everyone, Tom Hall checking in. I guess its time for me to chime in since I’m the MA Compliance Director and I helped rule on this incident. There is no grey area in this incident it is simply a case of a driver not following the passing rules as stated in the CCR’s, whether or not the driver fully knew and understood those rules. Location on track, IE: entering a turn, on a straight, etc makes no difference. When an “overtaking car” is attempting to make a pass (side-by-side driving, overlapped ahead or behind, etc) he is obligated to give the “lead car” room to his / her line. The “lead car”, which was previously clear ahead, is only obligated to give 3/4 of a car width to the overtaking car. In other words the overtaking car has to be ready to go 2 wheels off in order to avoid contact with the car it is attempting to pass (or is driving side-by-side with, etc).
Soooo, in this incident the overtaking car (Jeff) is obligated to give the lead car (Rob) room to drive his line. Again, the lead car is only [b]obligated to give the overtaking car 3/4 of a car width[/b], on the left side of the track in this case. [/quote]
I have read the CCR section in question several times.
Since the overtaking car dropped back, isn’t the lead car free to give the following car no room whatsoever in this case?
And if so, why was the leading car penalized for this incident?[/quote]
sage, once the white car was at the door, the red car had to give three quarter until either the red car got his rear bumper ahead of the white cars front bumper or the white car got his rear bumper ahead of the red cars front bumper.the white car did not lose his right to be there when he slipped a foot behind after getting to the door.[/quote]
OK, the attached CCR example made me come to the opposite conclusion.
Re. opposite conclusion. Point well made.
The problem with the rules and these examples is that they are oriented towards the braking zone of a turn. The actions of the passee are predictable in the braking zone and the rules dictate things that the passer has to take into account as he is planning and then executing his pass.
This incident was not in a braking zone. We all try to read each other’s minds, but I certainly would not have expected Rob to come across the track so I’d have been caught be surprise too. One of the purposes of rules is that they help us predict each other’s actions. They are not intended, to reference a hypothetical I created earlier, to allow me to ram a passer because he looked at my sister wrong.