Video of my rollover

#1

Here’s the video of my rollover - http://youtu.be/R92eUXohpGk Please share this video and make sure all of your racer buddies know the rules and situations to keep racing fun and safer for all of us.

#2

I was the other car involved. Here is my video.

https://vimeo.com/68543464

#3

I understand the rule to be, in essence, front wheel next to driver. I’m a relative newbie but to me, that was pretty close, and it sucks for both drivers.

btw, I remember seeing video of an almost identical incident within the last year or two - same track and turn IIRC.

and just an observation, having just checked: almost all of the examples in the CCR deal with overtaking into a corner. none of the examples speak directly to taking a line after having tracked out and entered a straight. I know the wheel/driver rule should still apply, but maybe adding another example or text in the CCR would be useful.

#4

I watched the videos over and over again and it’s still not all that clear to me what happened. Reminds me a lot of Palacio getting punted by Walsh last weekend at RA. Both Palacio’s and Walsh’s videos show two cars side by side w/o either driver’s hands moving the steering wheel towards the other. I guess that means that one or both cars was gently crossing the track with the steering wheel straight?

In this incident it looks like when the punt occured Jeff was pretty near the left edge of the track. Since he’s the over-taking driver, even if they were side-by side for 15secs, he would bear more responsibility to ensure everything works out. But at some point side by side for an extended period means there’s no passer and passee.

Anyone see Jeff turn into Rob? There is a little rightward dart of Jeff’s steering wheel at almost the exact heartbeat of impact but I think that was Jeff’s automatic reaction to his front end getting bonked to the left.

I don’t know either Jeff nor Rob so I’ve no dog in this.

It kind of looked to me like Rob was drifting from right to left into Jeff. At 3:57 Rob is at the right edge of the track. 2 secs later Rob is left of center and the impact occurs. Watch the critical 10secs of the videos over and over again and watch how the cars moved on the track.

I’m probably making a big mistake even venturing an opinion.

My condolences to both. Repairing a bunch of damage, and/or building a new car sucks.

I would ask everyone to not let the thread get hostile.

#5

I see it like ranger, and i too dont know either fellow. Always a shame when these things happen, but I’ve looked at both clips. Shame Robs camera doesn’t show mirrors or hands, but based on what I see it looks like Jeff did not turn Rob around, but rather they drifted together. I thought side by side is always fair game in what appears to be a straight. Cal it both or call it racing incident but I don’t see it all coming down on Jeff.

#6

Very interesting the same accident has appeared four times in the past 2 events between SE and MA, and we could even bring back Grace/Gags from last year.

What’s the right call?
Is it people holding their ground more?

In all four incidents everyone was trying to take the same spot in a straight line with all drivers holding their wheel straight. Every this resulted in a car into a wall.

These cars are very tough and very are lucky everyone has come out unscathed, but we are all on a fine line with some of these impacts and it’s getting kind of spooky.

#7

Once the overtaking car gets his wheel to the door, he has a right to be there and both cars have to give 3/4. When the car on the right starts moving to the left, the car on the left has to move left until his wheels are on the curbing. If he does that, he’s complied with the rule.

#8

White car had a right to racing room…red car did not leave racing room and got punted. For some other perspectives, see" http://roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?t=44994

#9

I’m not exactly sure who was at fault, but this situation happens a lot and is worth talking about. Perhaps some good conversation can turn this into a learning experience and help us collectively avoid this type of incident in the future. After watching both videos several times and reading through appropriate CCR sections and examples, a few things stick out in my mind.

  1. The overtaking car has the responsibility to cleanly complete a pass. Jeff initiated the pass, which he never completed, and should be considered the overtaking car for the entire event.
  2. A driver does not have the right to occupy any space until he gains overlap. Jeff did momentarily gain overlap, but did not have overlap at the time of the collision.
  3. The driver in front has the right to choose any line as long as he is not blocking (2 consecutive moves to protect your line). Rob was in front and therefore had the right to choose his line.

IMO, the three points above clearly establish that Rob had the right to drift or turn left (whichever happened).

  1. If an overtaking car gains overlap, the car being overtaken must give racing room. Jeff did not have overlap, but even if he did, Rob could have squeezed him and forced Jeff to put two wheels in the dirt. From the video, it is apparent that Jeff had all four wheels on the surface.

Bottom line, Rob had the right to choose his line because Jeff did not maintain overlap.

Lessons to be learned here:
a) It is the overtaking cars responsibility to complete a pass cleanly, but the overtaken car is only required to provide 3/4s of a car width and the overtaking car should be prepared to evasively put two wheels in the dirt even on relatively straight portions of the track.
b) A driver is entitled to choose whatever line he desires even on relatively straight portions of the track or at the expense of crashing his car. In this situation, Rob chose his line over preserving his car and the rules support his decision. Not what I would have done, but certainly not prohibited (sorry Rob).

Please feel free to poke holes in my argument.

#10

This seems like more of an interpretation of the rules than anything they actually say. Talking hypothetically now, if I’m on a straight and there’s another car alongside with its nose anywhere between my rear bumper and door, I’m not moving over on him just to take a better line. Well, maybe just a drop, but not so much as might result in contact. I surely would not assume I had the right to occupy that space and to pinch the other car over to the curbing. that’s just bad cricket

#11

This seems like more of an interpretation of the rules than anything they actually say. Talking hypothetically now, if I’m on a straight and there’s another car alongside with its nose anywhere between my rear bumper and door, I’m not moving over on him just to take a better line. Well, maybe just a drop, but not so much as might result in contact. I surely would not assume I had the right to occupy that space and to pinch the other car over to the curbing. that’s just bad cricket[/quote]

That’s the rule and how its interpreted. Whether you want to avail yourself of the rule is up to you.

Fishman:

  1. Agreed
  2. Once you get to the door, the other guy has to give you 3/4. Maybe “right to occupy” is the wrong phrase, but at that point BOTH have to give 3/4.
  3. But he still has to give 3/4.
  4. Just to be clear for those learning, curbing is considered “off”, so it doesn’t have to be in the dirt. Dunno that it applies in this case as I can’t tell if there’s curbing or not.

a) Agree
b) Agree and it brings it back to EdP’s comment–if I’m in Rob’s position, I press the issue and move over too in hopes that the other guy backs out or drops two, but I’m probably not going to press the issue as far as he did. So, if Jeff didn’t drop two, he broke the rule, but for Rob it may be one of those cases where, “just because the rules say you can, doesn’t mean you should”.

#12

Rob,
Here’s the same accident, just 6 years ago, at Hyperfest no less:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scgWWwkFSk0

I was convinced that it was a bit of a freak that the contact must have been right on my rear wheel to instantly lose traction like that. A few inches forwards or backwards probably wouldn’t have led to such a crazy aftermath.

Back then, Jonny Allen and I were battling pretty hard for the championship (along with Cobetto), and every race was a tough one. Some phenomenal racing, and I enjoyed almost every bit of it. Fault? Eh…I don’t think it’s fair to put all the blame on one person. Neither hit was intentional, that’s for sure. Yeah, I wish Jon would have yielded the line. But I love Jon, and had a blast racing him hard back then. Quite frankly, I don’t know that I would have done anything differently if I were in his shoes. Put in the same position today though, and I’d take a page from Robert Patton, back off, and live to race another day…

I’ll tell you what bugs me more about that race, was absolutely blowing Jonny out of the water in qualifying, but letting lapped traffic slow me enough to let him get close. I should have been spraying the champagne on Hyperfest trophy girls…

Get her fixed up Rob, and we’ll swap war stories over beers. I’ll be at VIR looking to spray some champagne…

Aaahhh well…I sound like an old coot who woulda gone pro if only…

[attachment=1970]download.jpg[/attachment]

#13

The onus is on both driver’s to prevent contact. IMHO, the lead car moved over quickly enough to prevent the following car from reacting quickly enough to prevent contact. Fault = lead car. Period!

#14

Last month at CMP David Herrington was working a pass on the outside of a rookie heading for 14. They’d been along side each other to some extent for about the same amount of time as this incident. Rookie moved outboard and punted himself on David’s front end. Rookie went into the tires.

There was some consensus that the fault was the rookie’s. The thought was the rookie’d lost situational awareness and moved outboard when David’s nose was already there.

In both cases a passer had overlap for an extended period. In both cases passee moved across the track and punted themselves. It’s not reasonable to point a finger at the passee last month but the passer this month.

Consider a different perspective…

If some passer has had some overlap on me for 10secs and I decide to move over on him I’ve got one of two things going on in my head. Either I’ve lost situational awareness and don’t know he’s there, or I’ve decided that I’m so sure he’s going to give way that I’m willing to risk punting myself.

The rule’s say it the passer’s fault. It would be hard to argue otherwise. But I’ve seen all sorts of veterans over the years in incidents as the passer, complain that the passee should have , and see most everyone nod in agreement.

I’m not saying IMO it’s Rob’s fault. I’m saying IMO it’s a mistake to be hard on Jeff about it.

#15

I watched both videos several times and I agree with Chuck. Lead driver punted himself!!

A two race suspension for driving straight and then having someone run into you is ridiculous!!

#16

Reminds me of what I’ve been told about marriage: You can be right or you can be happy.

By the rules, Rob was not at fault. But he ended up on his lid because he was counting on Jeff obeying the written rule by lifting or going in the grass to avoid contact.

Since he had position for the next right hander, hindsight is 20/20 that he should have held position center track.

PS - I was declared at fault in a similar incident (but in a curve) at VIR last year. Other car and I were side by side the whole way from T1 to T5. Since I had not completed the pass, I was declared at fault when the other car jumped a curb and pitted me into the tires.

It soured me to NASA rules. The other driver acknowledged it was his fault. I was DQ’d. That’s messed up.

#17

That is an absolute asinine rule - and one that just invites contact & controversy.

Maybe it’s my upbringing from open wheel racing - but to intentionally move over on an overlapping car going down a straight is unsportsman-like and intentionally dangerous.

I’m not aware of any other recognized sanctioning body that endorses or tolerates it.

#18

[quote=“PDS” post=72858]That is an absolute asinine rule - and one that just invites contact & controversy.

Maybe it’s my upbringing from open wheel racing - but to intentionally move over on an overlapping car going down a straight is unsportsman-like and intentionally dangerous.

I’m not aware of any other recognized sanctioning body that endorses or tolerates it.[/quote]
The rule is the same with BMWCCA.

The rule is targeted at the rapidly developing pass in a braking zone. In that scenario it works pretty well. In the slower developing “extended period side-by-side” it works a little less well. Not bad, but just imperfect.

Situations have to be judged case-by-case. Some series, like PCA and our own Spec944, both drivers are responsible for ensuring a safe pass, so no special burden on the passer to make it safe.

There will never be perfect rules.

A couple yrs ago I was side-by-side with someone for most of a lap at CMP. Then we hit a FCY. I could not for the life of me remember which of us last met the criteria for pass completed, pass initiated or whatever, much less what some flagger might be thinking. I was concerned that if I moved forward of him under FCY, I might get DQ’d. If I dropped back and pulled in behind him, he might get DQ’d. So we did 3 laps of FCY side-by-side.

Imagine you’re side by side down a straight-away and someone moves over on you. You’d just swear that you were the passee and therefore you refused to give ground so the guy banged into you. Could totally happen.

Everyone needs to be trying to avoid contact.

#19

[quote=“FishMan” post=72850]I’m not exactly sure who was at fault, but this situation happens a lot and is worth talking about. Perhaps some good conversation can turn this into a learning experience and help us collectively avoid this type of incident in the future. After watching both videos several times and reading through appropriate CCR sections and examples, a few things stick out in my mind.

  1. The overtaking car has the responsibility to cleanly complete a pass. Jeff initiated the pass, which he never completed, and should be considered the overtaking car for the entire event.
  2. A driver does not have the right to occupy any space until he gains overlap. Jeff did momentarily gain overlap, but did not have overlap at the time of the collision.
  3. The driver in front has the right to choose any line as long as he is not blocking (2 consecutive moves to protect your line). Rob was in front and therefore had the right to choose his line.

IMO, the three points above clearly establish that Rob had the right to drift or turn left (whichever happened).

  1. If an overtaking car gains overlap, the car being overtaken must give racing room. Jeff did not have overlap, but even if he did, Rob could have squeezed him and forced Jeff to put two wheels in the dirt. From the video, it is apparent that Jeff had all four wheels on the surface.

Bottom line, Rob had the right to choose his line because Jeff did not maintain overlap.

Lessons to be learned here:
a) It is the overtaking cars responsibility to complete a pass cleanly, but the overtaken car is only required to provide 3/4s of a car width and the overtaking car should be prepared to evasively put two wheels in the dirt even on relatively straight portions of the track.
b) A driver is entitled to choose whatever line he desires even on relatively straight portions of the track or at the expense of crashing his car. In this situation, Rob chose his line over preserving his car and the rules support his decision. Not what I would have done, but certainly not prohibited (sorry Rob).

Please feel free to poke holes in my argument.[/quote]

knowing the race director and being in the middle of disputes and hearing from others, this is exactly how he would evaluate this issue.

There are two things 1) what maybe should have happened to make everyone happy, and 2) following the rulebook. sometimes they aren’t always the same. The race director is strict to the rules. if you are the overtaking car, you are to avoid all contact. if you are up to the door of the other car, you have rights to up to 3/4 of track. that’s about as black and white as it gets. Feelings are not considered in the rules.

this is what it looks like in that same spot when feelings and $$$$ are considered.
1:01
video link

oddly enough, my feelings where pretty hurt by this maneuver. if i would have held my line, we would not have been talking about gag’s incident the next day.
20:20
video link 2

EDIT - crap, youtube timeline links aren’t working. they work outside of the forum, but not in it. thank you bill gates.

#20

I’m not new to racing, but I am new to NASA. I feel that this incident makes a good argument for a rule tweak about conduct on a straight. I’m not sure how to word it, but perhaps allowing for something more than the 3/4 car width tolerance, holding a REASONABLY predictable line when having been challenged in the prior corner, etc… If not (other than common racing sense), whats to keep a driver from chopping someone every time they exit a corner?

Putting aside the written rules for a moment, racers need to understand that trust and respect are earned one corner at a time. Especially when racing against someone you don’t typically race with or know. If I’m the guy in the white car I’d be perplexed. The red car was “courteous” down the prior straight and all through the corner, driving very predictably and respectful. Based on that, I might expect him to crowd me on exit, but not run into me. It appeared that if the red car simply holds his line, he’s likely gonna drive away from the white car anyway. He probably doesn’t have the perfect angle for the next corner, but at least he makes it there.