Toyo Issue!

#1

I’m all for a spec tire but the current state of RA1s is ridiculous. I don’t know what they are doing to the tires, I suspect they will say nothing has changed but practical experience does not support that. Issues: 1) they don’t last as long as they used to and 2) they are significantly slower until several heat cycles in.
Why should it take 5-6 heat cycles before the tires come up to speed?
Today I ran 12 session old tires one session and the next session I ran fresh 3/32" Toyos that had 1 heat cycle (from the previous event) and went 1.5 seconds slower!! Unfortunately we all have to run new tires at some point, why should we have to waste the first 1/2-1/3 of the tire life with poor results!

For our car, we are effectively tossing away 2 full race weekends in order to have 2 sets of Toyos “primed” for use at NASA National!

When is the current Toyo contract up? and what do we need to do to get other options tested/considered? The SM6 Hoosier has been mentioned as being nearly the same cost as a shaved Toyo yet being more long lasting than a std Hoosier R6. How many heat cycles can we really get out of SM6? What other realistic option are there? I like BFG R1s but they are pretty pricey and I don’t have experience running them for their entire life.

Anyone else have similar experiences lately with the Toyos?

Edit: I’d be fine with if we could go back to they way they used to be.

#2

i’ve only been racing since the start of the 2010 season so i’ve never used the old ra1s. but from all the stories i’ve heard they were pretty good - lasted a long time, were consistent from beginning to end, and in many cases were fastest right before they corded. compared to those stories i didn’t like the 888 (my car came with six wheels w/ new 888s) since they got slower as they aged and had unusual wear (groove of death). but the new ra1s aren’t much better, i find them to be noticeably slower after 10-12 heat cycles, they wear more evenly than the 888s but i still have to rotate them carefully to maximize life, and the need for shaving adds cost and complicates the ordering process.

i’m all for trying something different to see if it’s a better overall choice. something that doesn’t have to be shaved for dry duty would be nice, or allowing a different tire for rain conditions (bfg r1 for dry and dunlop star specs for wet, something like that). i’m happy that toyo sponsors our series but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t explore other options, even if it’s just to force toyo to “fix” the ra1 we get today. if the 888 wear problem could be ironed out i’d be happy to use them.

#3

I’d personally prefer to run the SM6 tires. Hoosier has a great contingency program and the product is great.

More than performance, supply maybe an issue here on the Toyo’s and they maybe forced to open up the tire choice. The issues in Japan have created a supply issue…

#4

i’ve run BFG R1s in the past and am not impressed with the new Toyos. Compared to the older sets, the new RA-1s are definitely different in the wear characteristics. Something definitely changed!

#5

[quote=“jlucas” post=58468]I’m all for a spec tire but the current state of RA1s is ridiculous. I don’t know what they are doing to the tires, I suspect they will say nothing has changed but practical experience does not support that. Issues: 1) they don’t last as long as they used to and 2) they are significantly slower until several heat cycles in.
Why should it take 5-6 heat cycles before the tires come up to speed?
Today I ran 12 session old tires one session and the next session I ran fresh 3/32" Toyos that had 1 heat cycle (from the previous event) and went 1.5 seconds slower!! Unfortunately we all have to run new tires at some point, why should we have to waste the first 1/2-1/3 of the tire life with poor results!

For our car, we are effectively tossing away 2 full race weekends in order to have 2 sets of Toyos “primed” for use at NASA National!
[/quote]
It’s hard to get rigorous data on tires. I wouldn’t draw conclusions yet. There’s several pro classes required to run RA1s. Those boys do a helova lot of testing to optimize everything. When we see pro teams no longer putting on sticker tires, but instead are putting on tires that have already run a couple hot sessions, then we should start wondering of used tires are faster.

Re. RA1s are fastest just before they cord. I know that some folks used to say that, but it’s hard to buy. Hard use boils out the esters or whatever it is that makes the rubber soft. By the time the tire is near cording, the rubber is pretty hard.

I used to run used tires I got off ebay. I used a durometer to track how hard each tire was, necessary because although I could make decent guesses of the tire’s state of wear, I couldn’t guess it’s age. I still use the durometer, but since I’m no longer doing 2 events/month I don’t spend much time trying to figure out if I can get one more day out of a certain set of tires. Lessons learned:

  1. Judging how hard a tire is from it’s state of wear isn’t very accurate.

  2. As tires get more worn they always get harder. By the time a tire corded it was usually around 20% harder than a sticker tire.

  3. The age of a tire and how you store it makes a difference.

  4. Nothing is as soft as a new sticker tire.

#6

you maybe right on the softness ranger but new stickers are definitely slower until you’ve had 2-3 heat cycles on them… no idea why, not a tire engineer, just making an observation.

#7

Full tread 888’s were just a touch slower than when shaved or worn down, maybe about a half second in a 1:50 lap. But even so it was really nice to be able to buy the tires at full tread, run one set down to the cords, switch to your rain tires, then get a new set for rain tires. The only thing I didn’t like was the way they’d get greasy late in a race. They seemed worse about that than any other race tire I’ve tried. It seems to me that 888’s heat cycle out a bit faster than RA1’s.

The “groove of doom” could be prevented with increased air pressure. The R888’s wanted quite a bit more pressure than many people used. The first time I used them was for a three hour enduro at CMP. At that time no one had any experience with the 888’s. On the assumption that they’d be similar to the RA1’s cold pressure was set to 28psi (aiming for ~40 hot). That was a bad idea. The “groove of doom” was almost to the cords at the end of the race and the tires were done for. Then I found Toyo’s recommendation for hot pressures in the 45-47psi range and the next time ran a lot more pressure. The handling was far better and the 'groove of doom" never reoccurred.

I only have one sample, but it appears to me that full tread RA1’s are a good bit slower than shaved. Out of necessity (corded dry tires) I switched to my rains at Memphis and immediately lost a bit over a second. Contrary to folklore they didn’t chunk, though the conditions were perfect for that, but they just didn’t have the grip the shaved tires had. Too bad.

#8

Up until this year World Challenge was running Toyo. Talk to BimmerWorld about whether or not they were running stickers or tires with a couple sessions on them in '08 and '09.

They’ll answer stickers.

I’m not saying I have all the answers, or that my experiences are any more valid than anyone elses. Me personally, I haven’t noticed any differences in tire grip over 3 race weekends. In fact, our quals are so short I don’t know if I should be thinking of that as a full heat cycle or maybe just half of one. But I do try to keep an eye out for what the pro teams are doing because they care a helova lot more about winning than I do, not to mention bigger budgets.

It’s really hard to be objective re. something like tire grip. There’s been many a time I decided that the cause of my crappy lap times was crappy tires so I put on a set that I knew were terrific. Only to find that I still sucked.

#9

pretty sure WC switched to R-888 in 2008. We are talking about the re-introduced RA1s.

#10

I was thinking 2009, but in any event, when have we ever seen pro teams prefer used tires over new tires?

#11

i crewed for a pro team a couple of times last year, they ran brand new bfg r1 in practice (maybe qual, i don’t remember for sure) then took them off and set aside. when i asked the tire guy about it he said they’d be the race tires for the next event.

#12

Exactly.

BTW, fifth heat cycle today… tires were fine and back on pace! WTF!

#13

Tires are the single biggest cost we have in racing. I’d be opposed to going to any other tire that costs significantly more no matter how grippy it is, unless it offers extended life to compensate. I loved the old RA-1s as I started out on them before I got licensed. Missed the whole 888 thing so can’t compare, but it leads me to agree the current RA-1 is not the same as what I began with.

The supply issue is annoying (I’ve lived canceling a race because of it) but should be temporary. There really isn’t a way to offer an ‘alternate’ tire because then we won’t all be on the same thing and thus, no longer a spec series. The tire thing has to be an all or nothing choice.

Are we locked into Toyo because of NASA? Did SE30 sign some sort of agreement that requires them? Or do we stick with Toyo simply because they offer contingency?

#14

I’d rather send my tire budget to Indiana than Korea even if they don’t last much longer. Have you been to Indiana? They obviously need the money.

#15

IIRC NASA National Office signed a 3 year contract with Toyo for the Spec classes. I remember hearing that back during the 888 debacle, when they wouldn’t believe me that I went from shaved to corded in 6 heat cycles!! I have no idea where we are in the contract term that’s why I was asking. I’ve sent an email already to one of the guys at National.

I agree we shouldn’t be switching just because the grass looks greener, we need to confirm. Since our SE30 community doesn’t have the direct experience with other tires on our cars, it sounds like some testing is needed.

#16

Toyo is a Japanese company with an American presence.
Toyo - Cartersville GA

Bitching about using a Japanese tire in a German car series? That’s funny.

Gang, we will be on Toyos. Save your breath. There are tires to be had. OPM had 11 Spec Miatas under the tent this weekend at RA and had no tire supply issues.

RA1s are faster as stickers at some tracks, faster with some heat cycles at others. With good alignment settings and watching tire temps, I’ve been happy with the wear on the current RA1s.

#17

Jeremy who shaved your tires? They might have been closer to 4/32nds. Thats my guess. But I agree they don’t last as long, not sure there is anything we can do, I still get roughly 2 weekends out of set and I’m ok with that. It is slightly annoying that I have to plan my usuage very carefully.

#18

What is wrong with buying American? Profits still go to Japan.

#19

Toyo is a Japanese company with an American presence.
Toyo - Cartersville GA

Bitching about using a Japanese tire in a German car series? That’s funny.

Gang, we will be on Toyos. Save your breath. There are tires to be had. OPM had 11 Spec Miatas under the tent this weekend at RA and had no tire supply issues.

RA1s are faster as stickers at some tracks, faster with some heat cycles at others. With good alignment settings and watching tire temps, I’ve been happy with the wear on the current RA1s.[/quote]
steve you’re missing the point of a “rant” thread. if you don’t have anything bad to say, don’t say anything.

#20

this isn’t a “rant” thread anymore tower, apparently it’s now an “issue” thread :slight_smile: