Tires for 2010

#1

Regionals and Carter: Can you tell us what direction we are leaning re. tires for next year? If I buy R888’s this month, I end up with used R888’s next year. The same for RA1’s. It would be nice to have some confidence that RA1’s will be legal next year.

#2

I had this conversation with Jerry last month. I bought RA1s but expect to mostly use them up this year. Basically no guarantees about next year until TOYO and NASA meet next.

#3

my vote would be to keep things the same. you can either run the RA1 or R888. it seems to be working now and since they sprang this on us mid-year a grace period is in order. Not sure the economy is getting better anytime soon and anything we can do to keep costs down would be great.

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#4

I gotta chime in on this one. Why don’t we run a Z rated tire that yields the same great characteristics of our R888’s and RA1’s but costs much less. The tire will also last a considerable amount longer than the R compound tires with it’s improved compound.

The Falken Azenis RT615 is considered by many to be the best Z rated tire on the market. Independent tests show the tire is on par with the majority of R compound tires with the same section width. We all know that a harder tire isn’t going to produce the same amount of lateral grip as a softer tire of equal section width but in my opinion the reduced cost is a no brainer. I actually believe the racing would be more fun. I would also be willing to test the tire in an upcoming race even though it has slightly less grip.

These are $91 a piece and I bet Falken would be willing offer up a contingency program that rivaled that of Toyo’s. IMO toyo’s contingency program is a joke. I say this because we are paying a premium for a tire that is quite frankly nothing special. Not to mention a win will get you enough money to barely cover 1 tire? If you want to be competitive the top guys go through 6 sets of tires a season. We could be racing on tires that are 1 second slower a lap for half the money. Falken’s involvement with grassroots racing is growing and they are a heavy hitter when it comes to drifting and time attack. They are looking to get into a series like ours.

I say we do it. We aren’t married to toyo so lets try something different that saves everyone money and doesn’t hurt the series at all.

Just a side note. The RT615 does have a tendency to overheat when pushed hard for 15-20min sessions. However, Falken claims to have made some changes to this years tire compound to help cope with increased tire temps.

The other tire I would recommend is the Kumho ecsta XS at $97 a piece they are a bargain as well. Designed for the SCCA street tire class they are a great tire that stands up to track abuse.

I would shave both tires as they are molded to ~8/32in. I would guess that at this tread depth you could have some problems with chunking.

#5

Yes, it’d be very nice to know about this in advance to support my cheapskate used tire buying style.

I’m putting my hopes in the NASA trying to maintain tire parity with SCCA Spec Miata in 2010 and allowing the RA1. The R888 can go the way of New Coke as far as I’m concerned.

#6

I’ll add a few opinions:

  1. We need to be on the same tire.
    Regardless of which tire we run, this is a spec series. Like any thing else that isn’t spec’d, different tire options would make the series more expensive. It would give a huge advantage to guys who can test the different tires, and it would add a luck element. Basically, it would make the driver a smaller factor. If it turns out that one tire is faster, a slower driver can do a better laptime than a faster driver by running a different tire. All interesting for race series with factory support on TV, but not good for an amatuer spec series. We should not have been allowed to run RA1s this year after the switch last year. Luckily there’s been something of a gentlemen’s agreement in the MA this year to stay off the RA1.

  2. We should (have to?) stay with Toyo.
    Toyo is a national sponsor for NASA, and the NASA website is clear that all of its spec series have to run toyo. The way I understand it, the only way to leave toyo would be to make SpecE30 a non-spec tire series, or leave nasa. Both bad. We get a lot of benefits from nasa, and the politics and business strategies are a relatively small consequense of that. The contingency program isn’t great, but it rewards consistency. I’ve gotten a few free sets of tires in the past year, and I have only 1 win. However I really don’t like the ideas I’ve heard of paying deeper into the field than 5th place. I would like to see Toyo give more contingency to the big 15+ car classes like SM and SE30 than they do to the little miscellaneous classes that manage 5 cars occasionally. It makes sense to give a SE30 podium finisher a bigger reward than a CMC winner.

  3. We should stay on a grippy tire.
    I think the RA1/R888 is a very good trade off between speed and lifespan. There may be a few tires out there that are cheaper and slower, but even if we could leave Toyo, I really don’t like the idea of using a slower tire. For one thing, slower cars are less fun to drive. A less grippy or non-R comp. tire would probably get greasy really fast. That means managing the tires would be a much bigger factor, which is fair. But it means we’d have to drive slower than ten tenths or spend much less time running at ten tenths over the course of a race. Nobody wants to run a 25 minute race like its a 3 hour stint in an enduro. Driving racecars is usually most fun when they are driven hard. Managing tires should be a small part of it, but I want to see us able to drive hard and race hard. I’m not interested in puttering around on street tires waiting for them to melt back into oil. I’m not sure it would be less expensive either. Yes the physical rubber will last longer on a street tire, but I bet they will lose grip more with hard use than the toyo. That means you can put a car on the track more cheaply, but it would require buying tires more frequently to be competitive.

So basically I’m in favor of keeping us on Toyos next year with the R888 or the RA1, but not both.

my .02

#7

allenr wrote:

[quote]I’ll add a few opinions:

  1. We need to be on the same tire.
    Regardless of which tire we run, this is a spec series. Like any thing else that isn’t spec’d, different tire options would make the series more expensive. It would give a huge advantage to guys who can test the different tires, and it would add a luck element. Basically, it would make the driver a smaller factor. If it turns out that one tire is faster, a slower driver can do a better laptime than a faster driver by running a different tire. All interesting for race series with factory support on TV, but not good for an amatuer spec series. We should not have been allowed to run RA1s this year after the switch last year. Luckily there’s been something of a gentlemen’s agreement in the MA this year to stay off the RA1.

  2. We should (have to?) stay with Toyo.
    Toyo is a national sponsor for NASA, and the NASA website is clear that all of its spec series have to run toyo. The way I understand it, the only way to leave toyo would be to make SpecE30 a non-spec tire series, or leave nasa. Both bad. We get a lot of benefits from nasa, and the politics and business strategies are a relatively small consequense of that. The contingency program isn’t great, but it rewards consistency. I’ve gotten a few free sets of tires in the past year, and I have only 1 win. However I really don’t like the ideas I’ve heard of paying deeper into the field than 5th place. I would like to see Toyo give more contingency to the big 15+ car classes like SM and SE30 than they do to the little miscellaneous classes that manage 5 cars occasionally. It makes sense to give a SE30 podium finisher a bigger reward than a CMC winner.

  3. We should stay on a grippy tire.
    I think the RA1/R888 is a very good trade off between speed and lifespan. There may be a few tires out there that are cheaper and slower, but even if we could leave Toyo, I really don’t like the idea of using a slower tire. For one thing, slower cars are less fun to drive. A less grippy or non-R comp. tire would probably get greasy really fast. That means managing the tires would be a much bigger factor, which is fair. But it means we’d have to drive slower than ten tenths or spend much less time running at ten tenths over the course of a race. Nobody wants to run a 25 minute race like its a 3 hour stint in an enduro. Driving racecars is usually most fun when they are driven hard. Managing tires should be a small part of it, but I want to see us able to drive hard and race hard. I’m not interested in puttering around on street tires waiting for them to melt back into oil. I’m not sure it would be less expensive either. Yes the physical rubber will last longer on a street tire, but I bet they will lose grip more with hard use than the toyo. That means you can put a car on the track more cheaply, but it would require buying tires more frequently to be competitive.

So basically I’m in favor of keeping us on Toyos next year with the R888 or the RA1, but not both.

my .02[/quote]

Maybe you didn’t understand me above but we ARE NOT MARRIED to TOYO. I have talked with Carter about this and as far as MA spec E30 goes we don’t have to run toyo’s. It is a choice.

Toyo will not change their contingency. SPEC E30 is not a big concern to them. I don’t think you would have to “manage” these tires anymore than you do with the toyo’s.

And as far as the RA1’s and the R888’s go I don’t see the big deal. The R888’s are faster with the right setup.

Lastly I still want to be a spec tire series but I think we could go to a cheaper tire. We are paying a premium for a tire that isn’t worth the money.

#8

Agreed w/ Mike. I’ve run the falken and it is a decent tire.

Although I question the ‘not married to toyo’ bit. That may have been said / told but saying it and moving away from them are two different things…

#9

Right, but I didn’t say we definitely have to use Toyo’s. I said we should stay with toyo. I really don’t see the national office allowing national SpecE30 to switch from toyo. But if just the MA region switches, which may be easier legally, I think it would be a problem. It would be really difficult to cross over to other regions and have visitors from other regions like we had last month. Also, I don’t see anyone from the MA going to nationals (when it returns where it belongs in 2011) and switching tires just for the week. And what would nationals last year have been without the MA drivers? A lot like nationals this year… I think NASA would take note of this, too. Even if they were stupid enough to allow it, SE30 would definitely fall out of favor, and you don’t want to play hard ball with your sanctioning body. F1… Basically I think all regions would have to switch tires for it to work, which I don’t think NASA would let happen regardless of what the rules might say. And if they did, we’d be in trouble.

I did about as thorough of a test as you can do last year with these two, and I found the RA1 is consistently half a second faster around summit point, and is much more consistent throughout longer sessions. That’s just my driving style and my car, but that’s what I’ve got and I’m sticking to it. I didn’t run RA1s this year even though I thought they were faster because I wanted a level playing field for everyone. And whether they’re faster or not, as I said before we should all be on the same tire.

.02

#10

allenr wrote:

Right, but I didn’t say we definitely have to use Toyo’s. I said we should stay with toyo. I really don’t see the national office allowing national SpecE30 to switch from toyo. But if just the MA region switches, which may be easier legally, I think it would be a problem. It would be really difficult to cross over to other regions and have visitors from other regions like we had last month. Also, I don’t see anyone from the MA going to nationals (when it returns where it belongs in 2011) and switching tires just for the week. And what would nationals last year have been without the MA drivers? A lot like nationals this year… I think NASA would take note of this, too. Even if they were stupid enough to allow it, SE30 would definitely fall out of favor, and you don’t want to play hard ball with your sanctioning body. F1… Basically I think all regions would have to switch tires for it to work, which I don’t think NASA would let happen regardless of what the rules might say. And if they did, we’d be in trouble.

[/quote]

If we lead by example and “test” the tires the other regions might enjoy the decreased cost as well and follow our lead. And we have a while before nationals will be back. We are just talking about changing tires here, I don’t know about the rest of the drivers but I don’t buy a year’s supply of tires at one time.

#11

Spec E30 isn’t married to Toyo, but NASA certainly seems to be.

The way I understand it, we make up a set of rules and then NASA enforces them. When NASA says what tires we’re allowed to run, and thus what tires they will enforce, they become the de facto rules regardless of what anything else says.

#12

Just a quick note on the 615. I like the tire alot and so do alot of other people. Every Spring they get put on back order and are hard to get for about 1-2 months.

#13

BTW, we should NOT switch to any tire without testing and testing should be done with a high quality (and therefore by default… FAST) driver and over many sessions, not just one run.

For you guys who think one region is going to run a different tire than the rest of the county, you need to read up on the history of Honda Challenge. Short version = not going to happen.

#14

I like the RA-1 a lot. I’d be happy continuing on with it, but…

One thing that I don’t like about Toyos is they are not the easiest tire to buy. Other than Phil’s it’s becoming difficult to find a good supplier. Local supply? Forget it. I bet I could get Falkens or Kumhos just about anywhere where I live.

The cost is okay. Not cheap, but not terribly expensive.

I agree everyone should be on the same tire. That said, I need a new set for my yet-to-be-raced car and am worried that no matter which model Toyo I buy it may wind up being the ‘wrong’ one for 2010. So, powers that be (Carter), can we get a ruling on this soon please?

#15

I am also planning on racing next year so this is a very important issue for my wallet.

The sooner a decision is made the better. I’m sure everyone is aware how difficult it can be to get a set of Toyo’s in late January.

#16
#17

Thanks for the tip. CJ’s was on the list of places to try (again this year) for Toyos. I drive past the Birdsboro shop pretty regularly. The one closest to me I called last time and they couldn’t have been more clueless.

#18

agree. resolution on this would be nice. i’ll be finishing up my car over the winter and would like to know which tires to get. Currently running BFG R1s which btw are amazing. We should switch to them! :slight_smile:

#19

I concur on the resolution.

I also hope to complete my car over the winter and anticipate being one of the new rookie competitors next year along with kishg and Axelerate. I already bought a set of 888s this year and slapped them on the M3 while doing HPDE’s with the intention of swapping them when the race car is ready. This whole tire issue deal has me quite disheartened and I have begun second guessing whether I should have gone to SM :unsure:…JK At least they acknowledge that there is an issue with the 888’s and have addressed it in a timely manner.

#20

cool. looks like a few new cars in NE next year :slight_smile: