Tire experiment

#1

Anyone remember the GRM project Spec e30… “A set of RA-1 can last a season”…we all know that that is not true these days, and I am not willing to spend $800 for a set of tires to run up front at my favorite track, CMP…

What I am willing to do is buy a set of TOYO T1R and see how they compare, lap times wear, longivity, consistency… I want to try it before the end of this season and maybe run them in 2012.

Maybe I will get some t-shirts printed up, “I got beat by a steert tire” for anyone I finish in front of, can we dust off the old Spec e30F class for this? We jsut ran NC-Car this weekend, and if we do get to race there, it will definately be a sticker tire track, and at the end of the weekend you will have nothing left.

Al

#2

Shouldn’t be a big deal as long as there’s clarity that it keeps you out of any kind of awards. Those that are fighting for podium places and other awards get sensitive. We should get Chuck Taylor and Robert Patton to buy in tho.

Who knows, this could result in a grassroots effort to formally change the SpecE30 tire in the SE.

#3

sure why not, i just had a set of falken 615Ks mounted on my spare basketweaves

#4

I don’t care even if they do make you eligible for rewards… You’re going to get dominated on T1R’s at the sharp end of the pack regardless. Sounds like an interesting experiment!

#5

T1Rs are pretty hard (240 UTQG). I think a better tire for this experiment is the Toyo R1R (140 UTQG) or the Kumho ECSTA XS (180 UTQG). I tried some Kumho XS’s at Putnam Park last summer during a track day. They weren’t much slower than the RA1s, but driving them hard shredded the tires. The center ribs rolled over and had considerable angled wear after two 20 minute sessions. They may wear better with a nice shave…

In lieu of destroying the tires, I gave them to my Dad for his DE excursions while he’s working toward his comp license. He has 5 or 6 weekends on the tires and they are holding up well, but he doesn’t drive on the ragged edge like me.

The Toyo R1R tread pattern looks like it would hold up better than the Kumho when pushed hard. I’d shave whatever tire your choose otherwise the tread blocks will roll over and wear strangely and/or chunk.

#6

An interesting experiment but there are a lot of other factors that need to be considered other than just tire life. How fast are they at different shave depths? Is 2/32 significantly faster than 4/32nds? If yes then it might end being more expensive to be competitive as you have to buy 2/32nds tires to run at the front. World challenge ran on toyo street tires for a while before they ran RA1’s, this was probably roughly 5 years ago. I think if you talk to guys that ran during that time that they will tell you there was no cost decrease because you had to have the tires shaved very low and they were still faster when fresh. I think Bimmerworld started in world challenge around that time with E36’s, they might remember that if anyone talks to them. We talked a lot about tires this weekend in part because of the news that the other spec classes (other than SM and SE30) were going to an open tire because of the lack of toyo’s from Japan. I asked several people if you could pick 1 tire right now what would you pick? Its an interesting question. The great part about the toyo’s is that they used to remain pretty consistent through out the life of the tire. So even if someone was running a fresh tire shaved to 2/32nd every race it was not a ton faster than a tire that was at the same depth but with 18 heat cycles. That used to be the case and now it seems they can heat cycle out which never used to happen. I feel like the life is similiar to the R888 when those came out so my gut is that they are using the same compound as the R888. We talked a little about the Hoosier tire that was developed specifically for Spec Miata. Anyway if you could pick the next tire that wasn’t a toyo r compound, what would it be? I’m not sure a street tire is necessarily the answer.

#7

I think I would like to try some shaved to 4/32nds at a track easier on tires (VIR, RRR?) then take them to CMP. I cannot imagine how it could be more expensive as you need $800 worht of RA1’s to run at the front and we run there 3 times a year…I guess you can get by with 2 sets. Sam Adams ran some of those Kumho’s at CMP on an e36 and destroyed them in one weekend…I bet the WC guys had fresh 2/32nds for every session. I have not looked at the price difference between T1r and R!R, but that may be a consideration. I think we would want to keep a spec tire…

Al

#8

the time, cost, and effort of running a tire that requires shaving to such a low depth (meaning more frequent replacement) would negate any benefits of switching. while i’d love a spec tire that is inexpensive, durable enough to survive 10/10th driving, and consistently fast throughout its life, i don’t think you’re going to find one sans a time machine. any tire that is molded with 6/32 or more tread depth will be faster when shaved, which means there will always be people willing to pony up and run them. and any tire that is durable enough to handle racing conditions without falling apart will probably be a max performance street tire (michelin ps2, dunlop star spec, etc) which won’t be much cheaper than ra1.

the only real solution is to really get on toyo’s ass and say “wtf is up, the new ra1s fall off a lot quicker than the old ones so we have to buy them more often”. which will make them very happy and totally prevent a change from occurring.

#9

ranger, you really think i could even make top 10 at cmp on street tires???

#10

What I think is that if you put the experiement on the skyline everyone congratulates you for conducting an interesting experiment that results in useful info. But if you don’t put it on the skyline, some hardcases will grumble about and complain to outsiders that SpecE30 is out of control.

It’s all in the presentation.

#11

I think a test with the Falken Azenis or Dunlop star spec would return better results. I’ve run a lot of laps on the falken, and it is a great tire. The dunlop is suppose to be similar or even better but I’ve never run them.

They both run about $100 a tire, and after a quick search makes them cheaper than the T1R.

#12

I’m all for the experiment, as long as I’m not the one who has to do it. But for what it’s worth I’m not sure what it’s going to solve. No tire is magically going to turn the same lap times shaved, unshaved, new, and nearly corded. We’re always going to be in a situation where fresh shaved tires are faster. I challenge the findings of anyone who says any generation RA1 was fastest before it corded. You didn’t see any professional teams out cording their tires before qualifying.

Now… limiting the number of fresh tires a Spec E30 can be fielded with in a region per year, might get us somewhere towards saving money. 20 tires per year? Toyo would hate us for that one.

#13

If a $90 tire is found that “lasts” (whatever that means) as long as a $130 RA1, then we save money.

#14

So we save $40 per tire, potentially lose our contingency money, and have to suffer being a second or two per lap slower in Lightning group traffic? I’ll pay the $160 every other weekend personally.

#15

[quote=“evanlevine3233” post=56307]Now… limiting the number of fresh tires a Spec E30 can be fielded with in a region per year, might get us somewhere towards saving money. 20 tires per year? Toyo would hate us for that one.[/quote]What is the definition of “fresh tires”? I have a bunch of left-over tires from my Miata that I use for one heat cycle. Those are exempt, right? :stuck_out_tongue:

PS - I hate to sound defeatist, but it’ll never happen. Switching from Toyo won’t happen either. I don’t know that I want to switch from a tire with good trackside support anyway. It is nice to be able to decide a few days ahead of a race “Yes, I want to mess with Evan this weekend. I’ll get some stickers.” then have them show up at the track.

#16

we ran a set of Falkens this past weekend @ NJMP lightening course in Spec size during a lemons race. The wear was outstanding. We put the car on the trailer a couple hours early but they would have been fine finishing the race. We didn’t notice them fall off any till about mid day Sunday after about 12 hours on the car.

we were able to run low 1:26s with our stock suspension eta powered car. I was informed the Spec E30 record is 1:21.XX

#17

So we save $40 per tire, potentially lose our contingency money, and have to suffer being a second or two per lap slower in Lightning group traffic? I’ll pay the $160 every other weekend personally.[/quote]

According to Tut’s recent post in the general section a new set of shaved RA1s shipped ran him $700. You could get either the Dunlop or Falken shipped to your door for less than $500. The $200+ difference would be significant to many including me.

#18

I never said that, what I meant was that it didn’t heat cycle out. It stayed remarkably consistent even when old. An old toyo just before it corded used to be faster than a fresh 4/32nd tire and very close to a fresh 3/32nd tire. Not as fast as a brand new 2/32nd tire but an old tire that was down to 2/32nds was very competitive, especially since I don’t know anybody that would shave their tires to 2/32nds that runs Spec E30. You couldn’t do that with the R888 it seemed to heat cycle out after about 12-15 heat cycles and it was pretty rare that I would cord them before the performance dropped off. We switched back to the RA1 partly because of this and now the RA1 doesn’t seem to stay as consistent as before. I’m still testing and it might be track dependent but that is my observations. I still get about 4 races on a set but I have to be fairly careful. Since I pretty much only run Mid Ohio and Putnam anymore that is the only place I have data and I would have a hard time getting 4 races and 4 qualifying sessions on a set at Putnam alone. I imagine CMP and roebling are similiar as I hear they are hard on tires also.

#19

So we save $40 per tire, potentially lose our contingency money, and have to suffer being a second or two per lap slower in Lightning group traffic? I’ll pay the $160 every other weekend personally.[/quote]

According to Tut’s recent post in the general section a new set of shaved RA1s shipped ran him $700. You could get either the Dunlop or Falken shipped to your door for less than $500. The $200+ difference would be significant to many including me.[/quote]

Believe me, $200 is significant to me as well. But it comes at a cost of having to race on a street tire. And losing hundreds of dollars a year in contingency money. And it probably won’t solve any inequity issues either. On top of that, I’ve never paid $700 for a set of shaved RA1’s. My last set was barely $600.

When you say the Falkens didn’t “notice any fall off” are you referring to GPS data? To the tune of “falling off” 1/10th of a second per lap? RA1’s don’t go to hell either. But in this class a couple tenths is enough to make it futile. Especially at a track like CMP.

#20

Actually we ran pretty consistent 1:26.5.x lap times for a few hours on Saturday and Sunday am. The SE30 lap record is 1.19.x there but this was a Lemons race with plenty of traffic and in an eta. The Falken’s were pretty impressive. They weren’t shaved either but our car was likely lighter than an SE30.