Yes, the latest word is that Jon will be coming. And for the LAST TIME, Robert, I will not agree to put Armor All on his break pedal…thats just way too dangerous…now your second suggestion for exlax in his morning coffe,well that just may be doable :laugh:
Summit Point next month
nasachris
#42
victorhall wrote:[/b]
[quote]All is not well in Spec E30 Mid-Atlantic. Drivers are dropping like flies from the series, and you’re proposing a Spec E30 flag and a canopy? Gimme a break! You have a problem that a shiny silkscreen banner is not going to fix. The South-East racers are having a good laugh at us, and they are completely justified, and quite funny I might add. Sadly, Mid-Atlantic has become a joke.
[color=#FF0000][/color] [color=#FF0000] All racing classes are down some. Spec E30 is no different than any other class percentage-wise. For this particular weekend we are at the end of the season, there is another NASA event in NJ and the economy has people worried but entries for this event are within reasonable limits. .[/color]
The way I see it, there are three serious issues with the way things are run in Mid-Atlantic:
-
Lack of Technical justification for rules changes;
-
Failure to keep cost in mind, and;
-
Lack of transparency in decision making.
-
Lack of Technical justification for rules changes
As an engineer, this is most worrisome. The 2008 changes to the rules did not make technical sense. I agree that the rules needed modification – there are too many loopholes as-is. But, the haphazard shotgun approach to fixing the rules only caused more problems. Spec3 is taking note, and is trying not to repeat the mistakes that Spec E30 has made. I wish them luck! SouthEast got around our rulemaking by allowing exemptions for 2008. Genius. It got me to drive 8 hours (in my racecar no less) to the Rock. I won’t drive one hour to Summit to race with Mid-Atlantic though.
Let me hit some high points for the rules. I promised these to a couple people who asked, and here are just some of my thoughts:
- Spec a camber plate instead of setting a max camber – otherwise you leave ride height open. You’re just begging for someone to come up with a custom high dollar plate.
- Disallow adjustable fuel pressure regulators. Why where these allowed in the first place?! There are gains to be had in messing with Fuel and timing.
- Why were brass brake bushings allowed?
- Spec a Sway Bar
- Spec a control arm bushing
- Spec a trailing arm bushing
- Limit wheel and spacer choices. Right now, I can run a 15mm spacer with my Koseis. Really should just be bottlecaps or basketweaves all around.
- Why was a second overbore on motors ever allowed in the first place? That’s just BEGGING to have people build to the limit. What’s wrong with the first overbore? They would be closer in displacement to a virgin motor.
- Diff fluid
- Gas-tank size for endures. Carter and Carlton benefited tremendously by having the only legal “big” tank at last year’s VIR enduro. We screamed about it as a community yet nothing was done.
Meanwhile, the most banal things remain concrete – no bumper swaps, silly ballast rules, and we have a rule that allows an oil-pan cover. Last time I checked, cracking oil pans on the rally-circuit has not been a problem. This has not been Spec E30. It’s been Spec Carter. Whatever is on his car, them’s the rules. By the way – your transmission breathers are illegal: Not in the rules.
[color=#FF0000][/color][color=#FF0000] There is no perfect set of rules…anywhere. One can pick out flaws but ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. The cars are rediculously competitive under the current set of rules. If one looks as the qualifying results for Summit Point in October you will find that they went like this:
1:27:4
1:27:5
1:27:6
1:27:8
1:28:00
The top five qualifyers were all within .5 second of eachother with the first two rows being only 4 tenths. This particular weekend was the norm, not the exception. I’m a bit confused because on one hand you seem to say that the rules aren’t strict enough but praise the SE for not following the rules. The times of the SE are never as close as what the MA’s are.[/color]
- Cost
The big draw of this series to most of us is the relative low cost to run an E30…in theory. I do all my own work – everything from welding my own cage, to any motor work. I simply can’t afford to do it any other way. So when you change the rules, and cost me money, you had better give me a darn good reason why.
In 5 years of running Spec E30, I have had 3 exhaust designs. I was REQUIRED by the rules to go to a 2-pipe-out system because Carter mandated this. We then went to the ‘Spec exhaust’ to start 2008 – and we know the heartburn that caused for everyone. And instead of going the route that almost ALL the cars had (a 2-pipe glasspack system), Carter went 180 degrees out, and picked a monotube system that from just a couple cars (coincidentally including his). Add to the trouble of dealing with just one supplier, and you start to wonder if any logic went into this decision at all? Furthermore, when the Spec exhaust was finally announced, Carlton posted dyno sheets showing a 7HP gain. Because the rule was changed right before season’s start, I could not get an exhaust before VIR. A handful of cars got them – Carter, and the cars in the NC area. But not the rest of us. You essentially gave a nice little HP-gain to a small part of the field at the first event. Nothing spec about that. And there have been many complaints about the build quality itself. This falls into my thoughts on technical validity, but how much thought was put into this exhaust? Did you look to see if it made more power if you cut an inch above the x-over, or 2 inches? Think it makes a difference? Someone with deep pockets could certainly find out, and I’ll be you that there is a nice little gain to be had in finding the optimum place for the x-over.
In 5 years of running Spec E30 (this is going to sound familiar), there have been 3 spec tires. First, we dropped money on Kumhos. Then the RA-1, and now the 888. Here’s where Mid-Atlantic really dropped the ball. Don’t feed me some BS about NASA making us go to the 888’s – Spec Miata and 944 ran just fine on ra-1’s – did they not? Not only did we go to the more expensive, shorter-life 888, we did it MID-SEASON. I drove my racecar to Rockingham so that I could race on my old RA-1s. Expecting me to drop $1200+ mid season on R888’s (figure on 150/tire for one dry and one rain set) is absurd, especially since I still have racks of RA-1’s (many won with Toyo bucks). I won’t repeat my tirade regarding the DQ from the race at Summit which I won on old RA-1’s. Suffice to say that it was maddening. Meanwhile, at the next Summit Point race, Skip shows up with 20+ HP on everyone and Carter decides NOT to make a compliance call. This all leads me to my next issue:
[color=#FF0000][color=#FF0000][/color] While I understand that some people like conspiracy theory the reality is that NATIONAL dictated that Spec E30 switch to 888s. It was discussed with Carter (and me, because, as a Director AND racer within the class they wanted my opinion) and agreed that since the RA1 was going to be discontinued we might as well switch to the 888 in June. The change was inevitable so why not allow the guys to run out the RA1s they had and then switch mid season while there was still a used tire market out there because the spec Miatas use the same size. If, by June, a driver had some extra RA1s left he could sell them to the Miata guys and recoup some money or sell them earlier and make the switch to 888s.
Also 944 Cup is an open tire rule. They can run on anything they want.
The reason that SM didn’t go 888 was two fold. Many SM guy run both SCCA and NASA (not a concern with SE30) AND Toyo didn’t have the supply in the USA to fulfill the orders that would have occurred had the large volume of SMs started buying 888s in 2008.
Since I built my car four years ago I haven’t done anything besides replacing wear items, rebuild the motor (expected) and buy the spec exhaust. This is the lowest cost and most competitive series I have ever played in. I am a better driver due to Carter’s efforts.[/color]
- Transparency.
Since Day One, Spec E30 has been run as a dictatorship. This was perfect when Carter was seeking to get evenly matched E30’s together cheaply. For a slice of history, Carter went to BMWCCA with the idea. They rejected the idea, since their rules weren’t going to be consistent with Carter’s. Carter found a willing supporter in Chris Cobetto and NASA. Back then, there was plenty of interest in starting this series, and plenty of interest in changing the rules. Carter stuck to his guns, and racers responded very favorably. Spec E30 was born.
It worked to get us going, but the dictatorship has left some of us with deep bruises. There is no transparency when it comes to rules changes and stability, and it scares me, especially when someone who has not shown any technical knowledge of these cars is running the show. And I cringe every time I hear about a statistician looking at HP numbers. Sounds like a politician’s pitch, and it’s a joke around the paddock (at least in the SE). Duck when you hear about a 12-point plan to fix Spec E30.
This issue doesn’t just end with rules – it’s a cancer on the way rulings are made. Let me give an early example: Carter decided mid-season around 2005 (I think?) to make us a 13/13 race group. No discussion. Just blam: we’re 13/13. I paid the price on this one. I admit to some erratic racing back then. My excuse is that I had to drive the wheels off of a car that was down 10+ HP (I had an old exhaust). No excuse, but I was suspended 3 race weekend for contact with Dave Derrecola (944cup) – contact that resulted in only body damage. Dave finished the race. It wasn’t until Carter punted Mike Davidson at VIR a couple Februaries back that the need to change was evident. We then switched to the NASA rules - good for Carter. Even under the NASA rules, it’s tough to get a “fair” ruling. I was DQ’d for a dink on Carter’s quarter-panel that most other racers would have keep driving away on. He decided to pit and end his race, so my punishment for hitting him had to match the offense. He didn’t finish, so I don’t. The NASA officials love Carter, but who the h3ll am I to them? Good for Carter.
And there was the infamous “compliance call” on RA-1’s at Summit…laughable.
Keep in mind that Mid-Atlantic makes the call for the entire series, so when Mid-Atlantic makes a call, it is supposed to stick across the nation. Luckily, South-East chose to do things differently. As a result, they have enjoyed better racing and more camaraderie. The fastest man in a Spec E30 is a product of NASA South-East, and his presence there has made them better. I raced at Rockingham with them and have no doubt that they are the premier group of Spec E30 racers in the country. To heck with a Spec E30 tent, with a banner and flag. You think the racers that you have pissed off are going to want to come have a drink with you? Don’t dress up the problem. Fix it. We deserve someone (or a committee) who will openly find cheap technical solutions to the rules issues. The way we’re headed is not the right direction.
Right now, I would rather travel down South to race. Robert Allen, you’re catching heat for calling the racing down South mediocre, and the guys are right. I raced with them at Rockingham, and the SouthEast can roll with anyone…and they can do it with a bigger smile on their faces. If I was to race with Mid Atlantic (because I really do enjoy the events that Cobetto and his crew runs) then I would run in GTS or PTE for fun. In fact, I encourage anyone who’s thinking of running in the Mid-Atlantic to run in GTS or PTE with the South-East’s version of Spec E30. I do want to be clear though, I think that Cobetto and Co do a fantastic job.
Bottom line, I just want to go racing and not have to worry about the BS that has plagued this season in the MA. Swallow your pride and take note of what the folks in the South East have done. There is a darn good reason that their fields have grown while ours have shrunk.
[color=#FF0000][/color][color=#FF0000]Bottom line is that reading this post is like listening to my 7 year old whine about why my 3 year old got the bigger piece of the popcicle.
Had you said at Hfest that you wanted to run RA1s for fun (fun being the reason you said you were there) you could have asked your fellow drivers to cut you some slack, or offered to start at the back of the pack or not take points or come in early or or or or or or. In 2007, when you balled up your car many of the other drivers were figuring a way to help you out. I offered to waive your entry fees for the remainder of the season if that would help get you back on track. (Don’t any of you guys get any ideas) 
I’m really not sure how one could have better camraderie than that. Had you made the effort you could have sold your RA1s to a Miata guy and scraped together a set of 888s and then come out and won some more toyo bucks to to get going again.
While the SE may decide to make up the rules as it goes I will NOT apologize for the Mid Atlantic region making a best effort to enforce the rules as they stand.
The reality is this. Much of what you claim is inaccurate and speculative.
First…If you look at results for 2008 NASA MA has 10 drivers that have competed in at least eight races and NASA SE has 12 drivers that have completed in at least eight race. Given how crappy you feel it is in the MA compared with SE, I would have thought this discrepancy to be much greater.
and Second…One of the main reasons that the SE has done so well with Spec E30 participation is because Jim Pantas has a very unique position. He goes to auto auctions as part of a business so he is able to buy the donors very cheaply. He has a cage builder that puts the cages in for a VERY reasonable amount. As a Regional Director he fields calls, just like I do, and can direct drivers looking for a good competitive class to Spec E30 if it suits them. The difference is that he can offer a race ready car, 85% built, RIGHT THEN, to a guy that is chomping at the bit. This is a great thing that Jim does. I would do it to if I had the same situation because it helps to build and continue the series. DAve Derecola does very much the same thing for 944 Cup and 944Cup is much more successful in the MA than in the SE.
and Third (but not last) There were ALOT more E30s that are still alive in the south where rust doesn’t get them making them more available there than in VA and north. Just finding an E30 can be challenging up here and a cage up here can go for two to three times what it costs in Stock car country.
One can argue that choice of tracks is better at the SE but, as a Director, for every guy that likes traveling, there is one that doesn’t and it is very difficult to turn down a track date at VIR to go to CMP or Rockingham or Lowes where driver participation is 25%-30% of that at VIR.
There is no perfect set of rules but the best rules are the ones that are the most consistent over time, even if there are some glaring or illogical flaws. I may not know much but I HAVE been doing this for 10 years, somewhat successfully, and what drivers hate most is spending money when they have already spent money. The logic of having a spec exhaust system was sound, in my humble opinion. Before they speced the exhaust a “trick” Spec Miata exhaust would go for $1200. There was definitive evidence that exhaust tuning made a performance difference on the E30 that could be substantial. It didn’t matter that forty different options weren’t tested, it only mattered that there COULD be differences… and yes it sucked to spend money but it is a reality of racing that sometimes it will happen. The exhaust looks pretty rough but mine has been bullet proof (as anyone that has seen my off track excursion at VIR oak tree exit will understand) and has performed great.
There are good drivers and bad drivers in both the SE and MA. I’m not even going to get into that one. I love racing with all of you guys.
Carter has done a very good job. The rules were co-written by Carter and another guy. Some of the stuff in there Carter didn’t want but had to compromise to keep from having two separate but very similar series come into being which would have been no good for anyone. Carter DONATES his time to this and has invested some of his own money in an attempt to create a fun and safe series. THIS IS NOT HIS FULL TIME JOB and the reality is that it has been a learning process for him. As a director I talk to my series leaders regularly to help guide them and Carter is no exception. Carter has nothing but the best in mind for the drivers within this series. I support him completely and regularly offer my opinions, some of which he may not like, but I learned a long time ago that if you want something to change provide a good argument, a proposed reasonable solution to the problem and smile alot. But if it doesn’t happen…
well…
I remember complaining once about racing and a very wise man told me a very wise thing. “Chris, shut up and race!”
I still love you Vic, but you are wrong and for several reasons.
Chris [/color]
victorhall
#43
My mistake Chris.
I’m obvioulsy a bitter angry racer and have no foundation for any of my critical remarks. I get off on bringing others down, especially on the internet. My concerns for a hobby which I obvioulsy do not care about are founded solely on deep rooted hatred of Southerners. Let’s all ignore my comments, since we can’t learn a thing from our sharpest critics. Plus, it’s difficult to make the process transparent, and why would we, since everyone’s happy?
Finally, car 325 is alive and well, and I quit drinking.
-Vic 
Steve_D
#44
Vic -
I was on the team that came in 2nd place in that People’s Choice destruction. We sure were glad you guys were there!:laugh:
But my co-driver was the one who clobbered BeerTech out of the lead. So I can’t be all bad, right?
Steve D.
PS - Just when we were all about to circle up and sing Kumbayah with Vic, someone else had to come up and poke him in the eye. :huh: 
FARTBREF
#45
We would have whupped beertech even without your help…I think they overheated or something Sunday and then JP tried to cut the car in half in the pits with some piddly ass sawzall.
Al
Malt Liquor Tech
Steve_D
#46
I hereby nominate this thread for “Hijack of the Year.”
I am proud to have played a minor role.:lol:
Steve D.
victorhall
#47
Steve,
We lobbied HARD to have you guys crushed, but to no avail. Apparently we had the largest margin of “victory” ever for a people’s curse award. Extra kudos to Todd Lamb (it was him right?) for punting Brian Jones of Beertech. It’s payback for the Paul Marshal debacle at Road Atlanta…yeah, I saw the video of that.
E30: 1
Miata: 1
Al, you sissies are lucky that we didnt’ do a better job of disguising our “i” motor (and that we were flaming a-holes on track). We lapped you and the beerwreckers so many times that I almost ran out of witty one-liners.
If we Lemon in 2009, then you’d better take BOTH of our cars out early. The douches in the blue and whites are for real son.
-Vic 
Patton
#48
Steve D wrote:
Steve, caution when pointing out “someone else” on the web. NASAChris is Two-time Spec e30 champ and NASA MA regional director, Chris Cobetto. Chris, Vic, Carter and a handful of others have been doing this spec e30 thing since some time in 2004. We’ve seen alot of stuff. If, by virtue of longevity, respect is due to us that have been around, so be it.
Otherwise, so be the nature of the internet.
Perhaps us old guys should have kept the correspondence just among friends. Then again, that would not have passed the transparency ideal. So, alot of dirty laundry was played out on the net, a two-sides-to-every story kind of thing.Now we can join in the Kumbayah thing.
Regards, Robert Patton
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming…
Steve_D
#50
Patton wrote:
[quote]Steve D wrote:
Steve, caution when pointing out “someone else” on the web. NASAChris is Two-time Spec e30 champ…[/quote]
Robert P -
No offense intended. My point (not well made, evidently) was to say that the thread had reached a point where Vic had both given and accepted some criticism. It would have been nice for it to end there.
I have a lot of respect for the pioneers of this class that you mentioned. I hope one day to have a tenth of the talent and courage that Cobetto showed me in the rain at MidO. He’s a wheel man for sure!!
Robert A -
Which one in the photo is Vic and which is Carter?
Steve D.
allenr
#51
Obviously Vic is getting the roundhouse kick to the sternum by carter with the support of toyo. Notice vic’s whiney expression as referee cobetto looks on approvingly.
victorhall
#52
Yup. Sounds about right. Also not fully pictured are the beertech boys in the front row. Oh look, Brian brought JP as a date, and they’re making out. So cute.
-Vic
scottmc
#53
This thread is filled with some of the worst crap I’ve ever read in this forum. It gives me little hope that any of the little issues (because that’s what they are… ) within the series are ever truly going to be addressed.
Carter isn’t perfect but he’s done a damn fine job of putting this series together. And while we may have our opinion as to how he could do it better… He’s the guy who’s doing the work. And until he’s willing to share that burden, we’ll just need to all learn to live with it or move on.
Vic is a… rhymes with Vic (but we love him despite that), makes some crazy suggestions but he also makes some very valid points. His voice deserves to be heard. But it seems like all the decision makers are picking sides rather than listening and being objective.
And somehow this thread has managed to drag the Southeast into this discussion and insult not only our driving ability but the legitimacy of the rules by which we race. While these insults that are directed toward us have been ever so thinly veiled… it’s quite clear you think we are not as awesome as you think you are. And I think it’s all a load of SH!T
First of all, we abide by the rules. We may not adapt them within the time frame that “National” has set forth. But we are blessed with leadership that has the wherewithal to realize that some of these rule changes where going to damage the growth our series if enforced in too expedited of a manner.
As for the holier than thou… our sh!t don’t stink BS, I don’t know where you guys get off. I’d be willing to bet more SE racers go to MA event that vis versa. Come race with us sometime and we can settle it once and for all. Not that I’ll be doing any of the proving. But I race with the Southeast and I’ve raced with the Mid Atlantic, plus I live close enough to VIR that I come watch you guys race. I wouldn’t put money on who wins the race but I feel certain there will be a new found (and much needed) respect for each other.
If you ask me? And you’re not… I’m going to tell you what I think any way. The rules are pretty good. There are some weird ones and there are some that leave a lot grey area. But for the most part they are good.
When loop holes are exposed, make an amendment to clarify what is and/or isn’t clear.
If you’re changing equipment? Be sure there’s enough time for racers to replace or fix what’s being changed. (IMO: The tires and exhaust changes didn’t provide racers with enough time)
And finally… quit using the Mid Atlantic as the the basis for which things are measured. Sad to say, but that is not the largest, most active region (on average). And if you’re truly concerned with the growth of the series, then you may want to look more closely at where the growth is happening.
I hope you’ll at least consider what’s being said.
allenr
#55
[quote]victorhall scottmc wrote:
Vic is a… rhymes with Vic
Hey, in my mind, Vic rhymes with Stig. It’s tough being me.
-Stig[/quote]
The stig would shut up and drive .
See new thread for summit nov. discussions…
nasaregistrar
#56
stevekappy wrote:
[quote]allenr wrote:
[quote]Back on topic-
FYI for those who are racing summit next weekend, the 4 hr enduro on sunday has been replaced by a 1 hr. sprint race for all race groups
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24535
Although I’m probably just talking to myself since there appear to be only 5 of us going… only two of which read the forums… one of which new of the decision before it was announced… and the other one being me :S[/quote]
I signed up for the enduro only to have it cancelled.
So, how many people are going since we do not have any updates on the NASA Mid-Atlantic site?
-Steve[/quote]Hey Silly,
I post the driver list on the NASA forum