Summit Point next month


#1

Mid Atlantic Racers(and others too):

I just spoke with Chris Cobetto and the November weekend is looking very light in all classes, not just for Spec E30.

We understand that the economy is not great, budgets are getting a little thin, etc. but we would like to see more racers that weekend.

I was planning to do the sprints and the enduro but seeing how my car is a goner, I’ll be there as the Spec E30 Regional Director and to congratulate the recipients at the year-end awards banquet.

Does anyone have any suggestions for Chris or me, on anything that would make that weekend more attractive for you? I know that they are planning a good party for Saturday night. And it’s all included with your entry.

After looking at some of the other classes, Spec E30 has some plans to add to the social aspect of the 2009 season. We have some new racers coming into the class and we want them to feel welcome.

Plus, Spec E30 is about more than just the races and we want to bring more to the table for the drivers. For sure, we’re serious about the racing in the Mid Atlantic but we want to lighten the mood a little, off the track.

For next season, we’ll have a Spec E30 flag, canopy, and plenty of chairs, that will be a kind-of “Spec E30 Central” for the weekend. Our drivers can come by and ask questions, enjoy a cold beverage and some snacks, and discuss any concerns or issues, in a laid-back environment.

We will also plan to have a tv for watching in-car videos after the Saturday night dinner.

And if you have any suggestions, please speak up.

Thanks,

Carter


#2

My car is for rent…or sale :wink:


#3

[quote]Mid Atlantic Racers(and others too):

I just spoke with Chris Cobetto and the November weekend is looking very light in all classes, not just for Spec E30.

We understand that the economy is not great, budgets are getting a little thin, etc. but we would like to see more racers that weekend.

I was planning to do the sprints and the enduro but seeing how my car is a goner, I’ll be there as the Spec E30 Regional Director and to congratulate the recipients at the year-end awards banquet.

Does anyone have any suggestions for Chris or me, on anything that would make that weekend more attractive for you? I know that they are planning a good party for Saturday night. And it’s all included with your entry.

After looking at some of the other classes, Spec E30 has some plans to add to the social aspect of the 2009 season. We have some new racers coming into the class and we want them to feel welcome.

Plus, Spec E30 is about more than just the races and we want to bring more to the table for the drivers. For sure, we’re serious about the racing in the Mid Atlantic but we want to lighten the mood a little, off the track.

For next season, we’ll have a Spec E30 flag, canopy, and plenty of chairs, that will be a kind-of “Spec E30 Central” for the weekend. Our drivers can come by and ask questions, enjoy a cold beverage and some snacks, and discuss any concerns or issues, in a laid-back environment.

We will also plan to have a tv for watching in-car videos after the Saturday night dinner.

And if you have any suggestions, please speak up.

Thanks,

Carter [/quote]

Carter,
Thanks for the news and as usual I have an opinion :slight_smile: .
I just wrote something long and insightful but I got the “code not correct” pop up :angry:.
Basically I enjoy the awesome on-track competition and mediocre comraderie in the mid atl more than I enjoy the mediocre competition (no offense- most of you are better than me) and awesome off track stuff in the southeast. If we can have both great, but we have to choose I like the way we have it now. I come to the track to race, not talk.
I think our schedule is a problem. Some of our mid atl regulars will be going to njmp instead in two weeks because they are tired of summit. 3 events in a row at the same track is not good. On this subject I think we absolutely need a 3rd track next year on the mid atl schedule.
We also need longer races and if possible, lower entry fees if we want to increase turnout in general. For the november event theres not a whole lot we can do. Budgets are exhausted, its the 3rd race in a row at summit, and it was added to the schedule late. I told an se30 driver about the nov. event at summit the other week and he didnt even know about it :huh: .
Turnout will be light next month but I predict record numbers again in february :slight_smile: .


#4

When rules are objectively applied, favoritism banished and the series is not run like a third world dictatorship; I will return to SpecE30.


#5

155MPH wrote:

Copycat;) Mine was/is for rent/sale first!


#6

Sounds like the MA is a blast. Since this is unfortunately just a hobby for me, I’ll leave the awesome competition for those of you still trying to make a living driving SE30 and hang out with the rest of the medicore’s down in the SE.

The canopy and flag are cool though!


#7

“I enjoy the mediocre competition (no offense- most of you are better than me) and awesome off track stuff in the southeast.”

You must be referring to the race where the 4 front runners started at the back of the pack…and still hunted you down.

Mediocre competition is a relative term.


#8

Carter: I very much like the idea of the Spec Central, that could take off quite well providing a spot for quick info and more importantly, vaulting our failng “mediorcre comraderie” to the heights of social status and fashion. (is there a Spec E30 cotillion in our future?),Seriously, I do think quicker communications by the club would be welcomed, I didnt know about the Nov date until at the track last weekend. Maybe e mailing such last minuet info would help. As to Nov race, how about reversing the starting order for the 2nd
race…or driving the track in the other direction?..just thoughts. I heard, again by word of mouth, that only VIR and SP are to be raced next year…but would like to see a 3rd, and NJ would be my vote also.

I hope to be at the Nov race.


#9

allenr wrote:

Basically I enjoy the awesome on-track competition and mediocre comraderie in the mid atl more than I enjoy the mediocre competition (no offense- most of you are better than me) and awesome off track stuff in the southeast. [/quote]

Wow, I wasnt aware Ron Dennis was on the lookout for new talent from NASA…good luck with that.


#10

[quote]You must be referring to the race where the 4 front runners started at the back of the pack…and still hunted you down.

Mediocre competition is a relative term. [/quote]

I did make a point of saying most of you guys are faster than me didnt I? Youre right mediocre is relative. IMO driver quality in the southeast is awesome. But relative to the mid. atl, the on track racing in the southeast is mediocre. Sorry if that offends you.

This is the kind of thing I dont understand. Racing isnt either serious or fun. It can be both. Its just a different kind of fun :slight_smile: . Just because we like to take our racing seriously doesnt mean we think we are going to f1! I bet I have more fun than anyone else at the track.


#11

I am not sure where the “I didn’t know about the event” comments came from. We voted to do this event at out meeting last December and it has been on the schedule all year.

Running the track backwards is a safety issue since all of the gravel, tires, etc that people seem to like to run into are placed for clockwise racing.

The tent idea is a great one Carter, that should be fun.

The culture difference between SE and MA is puzzling, as both groups have some really cool people. Maybe we don’t have enough Al in the MA:P :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

NJMP is in the Northeast region, so MA would not be the one to do an event there, now if Dragon’s Ridge ever becomes a reality, then that would be an option.


#12

nasaregistrar wrote:

It would be nice if MA and NE do a shared event at NJMP next year. It’s close enough to MA that I think the turn out would be pretty good and might get some of you guys to come north for a change B) [size=1][color=][color=#A7A7A7]if you don’t want to wait till next year, NE is racing there the same weekend as this summit event, sorry Carter for trying to take people away in a thread meant to get more to go to Summit :laugh: [/color][/color][/size]


#13

MA:
CMP
SP
VIR

SE:
RA
CMP
BMP
RRR
High Rock
Atlanta Motorsports park
Rockingham(no more) Pantas look at lowes it will fill up

SE>MA


#14

[quote]MA:
CMP
SP
VIR[/quote]

They got rid of cmp for next year. Down to only 2 tracks :(.

EDIT: Sean, the november date was not on the online schedule until long after the original dates were published. I am generally in the loop for these kinds of changes but for people who dont check the schedule after it first comes out and dont read the forums, I can understand why they wouldnt know about it.


#15

At least the competition will be good, so you always have that…


#16

All is not well in Spec E30 Mid-Atlantic. Drivers are dropping like flies from the series, and you’re proposing a Spec E30 flag and a canopy? Gimme a break! You have a problem that a shiny silkscreen banner is not going to fix. The South-East racers are having a good laugh at us, and they are completely justified, and quite funny I might add. Sadly, Mid-Atlantic has become a joke.

For those of you who are relatively new, and do not know me, I was at the very first Spec E30 race. I have been an active and outspoken member of this community since day one. I supported Carter when he was doing great things getting this series going. But now I support change. The dictatorship is a detriment to the series. Carter, you may dismiss my opinion based on perceived biases. By doing so, you will lose valuable insights into why this series is floundering in the Mid Atlantic. I hate internet arguments, since they always degrade into 5th-grade attacks, so I will try to keep my discussion fact-based.

The way I see it, there are three serious issues with the way things are run in Mid-Atlantic:

  1. Lack of Technical justification for rules changes;

  2. Failure to keep cost in mind, and;

  3. Lack of transparency in decision making.

  4. Lack of Technical justification for rules changes

As an engineer, this is most worrisome. The 2008 changes to the rules did not make technical sense. I agree that the rules needed modification – there are too many loopholes as-is. But, the haphazard shotgun approach to fixing the rules only caused more problems. Spec3 is taking note, and is trying not to repeat the mistakes that Spec E30 has made. I wish them luck! SouthEast got around our rulemaking by allowing exemptions for 2008. Genius. It got me to drive 8 hours (in my racecar no less) to the Rock. I won’t drive one hour to Summit to race with Mid-Atlantic though.
Let me hit some high points for the rules. I promised these to a couple people who asked, and here are just some of my thoughts:

  • Spec a camber plate instead of setting a max camber – otherwise you leave ride height open. You’re just begging for someone to come up with a custom high dollar plate.
  • Disallow adjustable fuel pressure regulators. Why where these allowed in the first place?! There are gains to be had in messing with Fuel and timing.
  • Why were brass brake bushings allowed?
  • Spec a Sway Bar
  • Spec a control arm bushing
  • Spec a trailing arm bushing
  • Limit wheel and spacer choices. Right now, I can run a 15mm spacer with my Koseis. Really should just be bottlecaps or basketweaves all around.
  • Why was a second overbore on motors ever allowed in the first place? That’s just BEGGING to have people build to the limit. What’s wrong with the first overbore? They would be closer in displacement to a virgin motor.
  • Diff fluid
  • Gas-tank size for endures. Carter and Carlton benefited tremendously by having the only legal “big” tank at last year’s VIR enduro. We screamed about it as a community yet nothing was done.

Meanwhile, the most banal things remain concrete – no bumper swaps, silly ballast rules, and we have a rule that allows an oil-pan cover. Last time I checked, cracking oil pans on the rally-circuit has not been a problem. This has not been Spec E30. It’s been Spec Carter. Whatever is on his car, them’s the rules. By the way – your transmission breathers are illegal: Not in the rules.

  1. Cost

The big draw of this series to most of us is the relative low cost to run an E30…in theory. I do all my own work – everything from welding my own cage, to any motor work. I simply can’t afford to do it any other way. So when you change the rules, and cost me money, you had better give me a darn good reason why.

In 5 years of running Spec E30, I have had 3 exhaust designs. I was REQUIRED by the rules to go to a 2-pipe-out system because Carter mandated this. We then went to the ‘Spec exhaust’ to start 2008 – and we know the heartburn that caused for everyone. And instead of going the route that almost ALL the cars had (a 2-pipe glasspack system), Carter went 180 degrees out, and picked a monotube system that from just a couple cars (coincidentally including his). Add to the trouble of dealing with just one supplier, and you start to wonder if any logic went into this decision at all? Furthermore, when the Spec exhaust was finally announced, Carlton posted dyno sheets showing a 7HP gain. Because the rule was changed right before season’s start, I could not get an exhaust before VIR. A handful of cars got them – Carter, and the cars in the NC area. But not the rest of us. You essentially gave a nice little HP-gain to a small part of the field at the first event. Nothing spec about that. And there have been many complaints about the build quality itself. This falls into my thoughts on technical validity, but how much thought was put into this exhaust? Did you look to see if it made more power if you cut an inch above the x-over, or 2 inches? Think it makes a difference? Someone with deep pockets could certainly find out, and I’ll be you that there is a nice little gain to be had in finding the optimum place for the x-over.

In 5 years of running Spec E30 (this is going to sound familiar), there have been 3 spec tires. First, we dropped money on Kumhos. Then the RA-1, and now the 888. Here’s where Mid-Atlantic really dropped the ball. Don’t feed me some BS about NASA making us go to the 888’s – Spec Miata and 944 ran just fine on ra-1’s – did they not? Not only did we go to the more expensive, shorter-life 888, we did it MID-SEASON. I drove my racecar to Rockingham so that I could race on my old RA-1s. Expecting me to drop $1200+ mid season on R888’s (figure on 150/tire for one dry and one rain set) is absurd, especially since I still have racks of RA-1’s (many won with Toyo bucks). I won’t repeat my tirade regarding the DQ from the race at Summit which I won on old RA-1’s. Suffice to say that it was maddening. Meanwhile, at the next Summit Point race, Skip shows up with 20+ HP on everyone and Carter decides NOT to make a compliance call. This all leads me to my next issue:

  1. Transparency.

Since Day One, Spec E30 has been run as a dictatorship. This was perfect when Carter was seeking to get evenly matched E30’s together cheaply. For a slice of history, Carter went to BMWCCA with the idea. They rejected the idea, since their rules weren’t going to be consistent with Carter’s. Carter found a willing supporter in Chris Cobetto and NASA. Back then, there was plenty of interest in starting this series, and plenty of interest in changing the rules. Carter stuck to his guns, and racers responded very favorably. Spec E30 was born.

It worked to get us going, but the dictatorship has left some of us with deep bruises. There is no transparency when it comes to rules changes and stability, and it scares me, especially when someone who has not shown any technical knowledge of these cars is running the show. And I cringe every time I hear about a statistician looking at HP numbers. Sounds like a politician’s pitch, and it’s a joke around the paddock (at least in the SE). Duck when you hear about a 12-point plan to fix Spec E30.

This issue doesn’t just end with rules – it’s a cancer on the way rulings are made. Let me give an early example: Carter decided mid-season around 2005 (I think?) to make us a 13/13 race group. No discussion. Just blam: we’re 13/13. I paid the price on this one. I admit to some erratic racing back then. My excuse is that I had to drive the wheels off of a car that was down 10+ HP (I had an old exhaust). No excuse, but I was suspended 3 race weekend for contact with Dave Derrecola (944cup) – contact that resulted in only body damage. Dave finished the race. It wasn’t until Carter punted Mike Davidson at VIR a couple Februaries back that the need to change was evident. We then switched to the NASA rules - good for Carter. Even under the NASA rules, it’s tough to get a “fair” ruling. I was DQ’d for a dink on Carter’s quarter-panel that most other racers would have keep driving away on. He decided to pit and end his race, so my punishment for hitting him had to match the offense. He didn’t finish, so I don’t. The NASA officials love Carter, but who the h3ll am I to them? Good for Carter.

And there was the infamous “compliance call” on RA-1’s at Summit…laughable.

Keep in mind that Mid-Atlantic makes the call for the entire series, so when Mid-Atlantic makes a call, it is supposed to stick across the nation. Luckily, South-East chose to do things differently. As a result, they have enjoyed better racing and more camaraderie. The fastest man in a Spec E30 is a product of NASA South-East, and his presence there has made them better. I raced at Rockingham with them and have no doubt that they are the premier group of Spec E30 racers in the country. To heck with a Spec E30 tent, with a banner and flag. You think the racers that you have pissed off are going to want to come have a drink with you? Don’t dress up the problem. Fix it. We deserve someone (or a committee) who will openly find cheap technical solutions to the rules issues. The way we’re headed is not the right direction.

Right now, I would rather travel down South to race. Robert Allen, you’re catching heat for calling the racing down South mediocre, and the guys are right. I raced with them at Rockingham, and the SouthEast can roll with anyone…and they can do it with a bigger smile on their faces. If I was to race with Mid Atlantic (because I really do enjoy the events that Cobetto and his crew runs) then I would run in GTS or PTE for fun. In fact, I encourage anyone who’s thinking of running in the Mid-Atlantic to run in GTS or PTE with the South-East’s version of Spec E30. I do want to be clear though, I think that Cobetto and Co do a fantastic job.

Bottom line, I just want to go racing and not have to worry about the BS that has plagued this season in the MA. Swallow your pride and take note of what the folks in the South East have done. There is a darn good reason that their fields have grown while ours have shrunk.

Respectfully yours, and always open to discussion and criticism,
-Vic


#17

Vic,

The rules dont make sense at times but I dont think carter is corrupt. If you think the rules are weird in SE30, you should try running with PTE. You may want to check whether your car is an “i” or an “is” first.

OK, one last time: All I meant to say is that from my observations the racing up front in the mid. atl is superior. You all seem to interpret that as “you suck”. I had a ton of fun racing with you guys at cmp and as I said most of you are faster than me, but just being able to witness the skeen-cobetto-johnny battles in the mid atl. is just plain inspirational. I cant wait to run some southeast races next year (for fun, not toyo bucks or f1 rides :wink: )

I am also wondering what a statistician is and why we need one to make a hp cap.


#18

allenr wrote:

[quote]Vic,

The rules dont make sense at times but I dont think carter is corrupt. If you think the rules are weird in SE30, you should try running with PTE. You may want to check whether your car is an “i” or an “is” first.

OK, one last time: All I meant to say is that from my observations the racing up front in the mid. atl is superior. You all seem to interpret that as “you suck”. I had a ton of fun racing with you guys at cmp and as I said most of you are faster than me, but just being able to witness the skeen-cobetto-johnny battles in the mid atl. is just plain inspirational. I cant wait to run some southeast races next year (for fun, not toyo bucks or f1 rides :wink: )

I am also wondering what a statistician is and why we need one to make a hp cap.[/quote]

Robert,
I don’t think anyone meant to twist your words. You’ve got a great attitude about racing, and I hope to keep dicing it up with you on track.

Just to be clear, I never said that Carter was corrupt. He is not. Neither is my mom, but I wouldn’t want her deciding on Spec E30 rules changes.

-Vic


#19

Vic - tell us how you really feel, don’t hold it all inside it isn’t healthy.

I don’t think anyone is corrupt either, but I do believe (and have pointed out) if anyone thinks a NASA officials car is going to be targeted for tech inspection and / or that inspection would be done with the fullest due diligence they’re nuts.

This isn’t to imply anything is rotten in Denmark, mayors in small towns (and probably big towns) don’t get speeding tickets either. The guys down below know who they work for without anything being said. I think there is a conflict of interest in someone making the rules, or enforcing the rules also being a racer in the same group. Unfortunately I can only point out the problem here not offer a solution since realistically this isn’t NASCAR or F1 with a full time enforcement crew and total objectivity. I can’t speak for MA since I don’t race there, but both Pantas and Chuck have done a good jobs in difficult positions. Also from Pantas’ finishing position it is pretty clear his car is very legal.:stuck_out_tongue:

I do think that better communication on how the rules are made, transparency of the process, and better adoption of suggestions from the peanut gallery would go a long way. Maybe I should just copy this and save it as a word doc since I’ll bet I’ll post it again before anything changes or gets fixed.

In the meantime, the medicore racers in the SouthEast will have fun. Of course I’d have fun with these guys even if we weren’t racing, I think that is a big part of it.

I still think the canopy would be a nice add - btw. We’ll work on the flag for next year too.


#20

Here’s a HUGE difference between the front runners of MA and the front runners of SE. The front runners of MA crash into each other regularly, but the front runners of SE do not. Yet, there appears to be some sort of “gentleman’s agreement” within the MA, whereby patently aggressive and even dangerous/irresponsible driving is permitted provided you’re friends with the right people. Granted, I was far from running at the top. But, I honestly had absolutely no desire to get there. Racing at this level should be fun, and for me fun doesn’t include banging around. Incidentally, I was hit in my first race weekend in MA, and no penalties were ever assigned even though the driver who hit me admitted fault. To me this sent a signal that rough driving will be tolerated and I’ll have to foot the bill for it. Fun also doesn’t include throwing stupid money at the car for seemingly arbitrary decisions like the exhaust. I feel a bit like the rule set forgot that absolute speed and power are completely meaningless if everyone is equally slow. Justifying the exhaust choice with dyno graphs rather than conforming to the most prevalent system was counter to the concept that initiated SpecE30. To me, all rule decisions should be made based upon keeping the cars cheap and slow. Frankly, I think people drawn to this equation are the kinds of people I want to race with. Horsepower junkies can do American Iron, Factory Five, CMC, or whatever; cornering takes more skill than mashing the gas, so good riddance. The same cheap and slow reasoning goes for tires. I see no reason we shouldn’t be running something less sticky and much cheaper.

Sasha