SpecE30 in PT?

#21

jlucas wrote:

I was wondering the same thing when I re-read the PT rules Looks like they already do that for some classes:

These NASA racecar and guest racecar classifications are valid provided that the car meets all of the requirements and restrictions of its own class rules, including tire size and brand if applicable. As well, specific restrictions and specifications that must be adhered to are listed for some of the below models in Appendix C (see Appendix C for details).

Race Class PT Class
Allison Legacy PTC (see Appendix C)
Baby Grand PTA
Factory Five Challenge PTA
Legends (all) PTC
Panoz GTRA PTB (see Appendix C)
Pro Challenge Road Race PTA (see Appendix C)
RSR PTB
Spec Racer Ford PTB
Thunder Roadster PTA (see Appendix C)

#22

Someone send the issue to Jim Pantas. Not me tho, I drive him crazy with stuff all the time. I’ve tired of being the problem child.

#23

[quote]allenr wrote:
but dont doubt the SpecE30 cars and drivers. …[/quote]
Nasa National --> top PTE car 1:42.7, top SpecE30 1:45.0

Yes it’s possible to beat some PTE cars but not if fully/properly prepped.

#24

top spec e30 times were slower at nationals than top PTE time, but big change in PT rules this year is a max power to weight ratio for each class which applies to cars even if they are legal points wise(which for PTE is 16.5 to 1 i think), this helps eliminate cars like the honda civc SI that won pte two years ago (it made 197 whp!!! on the dyno) with a "stock intake, exhaust (includin cat) and stock ecu… (by the way, H1 cars with k24 (civic is k20) made only about 10 hp more)

generally spec e30 runs similar times to pte, look at the nasa ma records and they are similar

and we have several very well prepped PTE cars in nasa MA (not mine ;-), but some of the other ones.)

vir full lap record around 2:19
summit point lap record around 1:27

#25

I submitted a request with the National office.

#26

jlucas wrote:

Thank you sir! Here’s hoping for favorable results.

#27

Didn’t the “i” cars come with the LSD every once in awhile? Seem to remember people saying that when I was looking for a donor car. If true, wonder how that would affect the classing.

#28

secu wrote:

LSD was apparently an option for an i car. I don’t think that changes anything for the “base car” math tho.

#29

The fact that lsd was an option on the “i” car means it adds extra points that an “is” car doesnt. This is what ended up making me illegal in PTE.
And you thought the only difference was the lip spoiler… :stuck_out_tongue:

#30

depends on which model of car is classed, w/ e30, base e30 which did not come w/ lsd was classed, so 3 point taken if your e30 has lsd

ie. whether you have an I or IS doesn’t matter, e30 when classed for PT points was classed as base e30 which did not have lsd, which means if you have that, add 3 points

if that had classed e30 and assumed came with lsd, base class would probably be PTE instead of PTF ** :wink:

#31

I’ve been in contact with Kevin Smith our regional TT director all week on this issue and he has looped in Greg G. I had suggested adding SE30 to section 5.2.1 which allows for guest classing into PT/TT and based on our HP/Weight we would be in E. Here’s the official word from Greg.

[quote]AJ,

I do not see the 318, 325, or 330 listed as a separate "iS"model. Therefore, you do need to take points for all of the modifications it has that were not standard on the base model of the car that you have. So, you would need to take points for the LSD, airdam, rear spoiler. However, you can also upgrade the airdam and rear spoiler to better performing parts for the same points. And, you can remove the airdam and spoiler (using the base model front fascia if needed) if you don’t want the points.

Most of the Spec E30 cars that we have seen were in PTE anyway. We will not class them by their Spec E30 rules at this time. There is no reason to give them a “waiver” from the PT rules. They have their own NASA class to run in, and they can also run in GTS. They can run in PT, but we are not going to require our PT Directors to now be Spec E30 compliance technicians, and we are not going to follow any changes to the Spec E30 rules to determine if we then need to change their “waiver” for PT. Lastly, Spec E30 ran in the same run group with PT at the Championships this past year, and they couldn’t supersize to PT there anyway.

Of course a Spec E30 that was built for Spec E30, taking points for upgraded OEM air dam and rear lip spoilers in PT, and not using the extra points or upgrading to high performing air dam and rear wing will not be competitive in PTD. If the driver wants to be competitive in PTD, then he needs to build the car for PTD.

Greg Greenbaum
NASA National TT, PT, ST Director[/quote]

#32

jlucas wrote:

Really we cant. Because there are so many various levels of prep and diffrences in the cars available to run in SpecE30, it wouldnt be doing you guys any service to just blanket class you guys.

The faster SpecE30’s would have been very competative in TTE at the championship had they not run in the same race group. And ill tell you to read the FREE mods very closely for PT. I debated and won a few more free items that should help negate the higher tire points value. (upper stress bar is one of them)

I dont see why you cant have a Spec E30 and not be competative and even win PT events!

I mean, if your just looking for more track time, thats one thing then dont worry about the rules, class the car in PTD and go drive. Otherwise look at the rules closely. You might have one or 2 items you change out to run PT to max the car.

Shawn Meze
Socal PT & TT co director.
2008 Championship group J race director

#33

I suppose there’s also the engine swap issue - the se30 rules just class by the engine we all have to run, but if the car / engine don’t match (e.g. using an ‘e’ body with an ‘is’ engine) then that swap has to be approved by Greg before it can run in PT.

And PT’s definition of ‘Stock’ as ‘every single car had one’ is definitely different that other rule sets. My 318ti’s been bitten by that one several times.

But hey, no insurmountable obstacles - just need to get some more paperwork done. :S

#34

I could be wrong, but I doubt that Greg would care about the i engine in an e body swap if you class based on the 325i to start. And to Shawn, there are now very few variations on Spec E30s with the elimination of the 325e’s and soon the 318iS’s
bruce

MadManMotors wrote:

[quote]I suppose there’s also the engine swap issue - the se30 rules just class by the engine we all have to run, but if the car / engine don’t match (e.g. using an ‘e’ body with an ‘is’ engine) then that swap has to be approved by Greg before it can run in PT.

And PT’s definition of ‘Stock’ as ‘every single car had one’ is definitely different that other rule sets. My 318ti’s been bitten by that one several times.

But hey, no insurmountable obstacles - just need to get some more paperwork done. :S[/quote]

#35

Shawn, Respectfully:

  1. TTE is not PTE
  2. PTE & SpecE30 ran on track at the same time with the same conditions and same traffic at both regional races and at the Nationals - the results speak for themselves
  3. There is no way in hell a legal SpecE30 car is going to be competitive in PTD
  4. If you don’t want us running in your groups competitively there are cheaper options for just “track time”, we are talking about trying to run in 2 classes competitively in the same weekend without swapping parts on and off the car between every session – schedules sometimes make it impossible to do swaps anyway; as a bonus this would allow some of us who are so inclined to share a car on the same weekend and lower our overall weekend expenses by sharing transportation costs
  5. The front running cars are full prep for both SE30 & PTE, the differences you are talking about are only on lower level prep cars; you can compare front runner to front runners without any difficulty.
#36

The free mods are helpful but most of us running race prepped cars and all that stuff is either done or not allowed by SE30 rules which is our “home” ruleset.

As has been said, Spec E30s are not going to be competitive in D (TT or PT).I would be inclined to remove my ballast to run lighter in D, but really do I want that hassle just to be mid pack in D against the local turbos? No.

As a real example, our schedule this month in Norcal has PT and SE30 running back to back - even if we were so inclined to modify the car between sessions, there’s no time to modify the car and run both series at a competitive level.

SE30s have a unique rule set much like SM. The lap times speak for themselves when compared to each other and with PT. SMs class as E and are slightly faster (based on lap times) than SE30s which are D. It doesn’t make sense. Versus a re-baselining of the E30 platform, the easy solution is a guest class in E for SE30, just as is done for several other race classes, as well as Enduros. The class compliance rules could be manageable by the SE30 director and NASA tech as they are for SE30 so PT/TT directors don’t have to learn a whole new ruleset. The SE30 rules are pretty stable so it is unlikely changes would come that would require a re-evaluation / upclassing.

In my mind, the outcome is that SE30s would run in PT for fun against each other, and for extra track time. But we are all competitive by nature and want to well in our class and that’s what creates this internal conflict. Judging from the official responses I don’t see it changing via email and bulletin boards. A well-thought out approach at an “official” level and in person or on the phone to create a situation where SE30 will be competitive in PT or TT for points. Until then it’s just a fun run against other SE30s that choose to supersize into PT for extra track time.

#37

jlucas wrote:

[quote]Shawn, Respectfully:

  1. TTE is not PTE
  2. PTE & SpecE30 ran on track at the same time with the same conditions and same traffic at both regional races and at the Nationals - the results speak for themselves
  3. There is no way in hell a legal SpecE30 car is going to be competitive in PTD
  4. If you don’t want us running in your groups competitively there are cheaper options for just “track time”, we are talking about trying to run in 2 classes competitively in the same weekend without swapping parts on and off the car between every session – schedules sometimes make it impossible to do swaps anyway; as a bonus this would allow some of us who are so inclined to share a car on the same weekend and lower our overall weekend expenses by sharing transportation costs
  5. The front running cars are full prep for both SE30 & PTE, the differences you are talking about are only on lower level prep cars; you can compare front runner to front runners without any difficulty.[/quote]

TTE is not PTE. True, one is a race class with all the safety required for racing wheel to wheel. TT is not required all the safety gear however, the times are similar.

I never suggested a SpecE30 car can run competatively in PTD. On the contrary, they should run in E when possible. There is a way to make the D car legal for E. Read the points you take for items that dont do much for the car. I can think of 2 items that can be either removed or changed back to OE to gain a few points back. The points changed alot in a way that might help the E30 much more than last year so its worth investigating if you want to consider running PT.

Being nationally competative in PTE likely wont happen with ANY Spec series car. If you want to have a nationally competitive E30 in PTE you simply need to build the car for PTE. For local events, I dont see any reason why you couldnt have competitive races in PTE with a SpecE30 and depending on the region, PTD as well. in some cases. All I was saying in my previous post is, if you just want more track time and dont care about competing in PT, then just run in PTD so that no matter what anyone says, you are legal and you can get the track time your looking for. Otherwise look into the rules and see what can be used to your benefit.

Shawn Meze
Socal PT & TT co director.
2008 Championship group J race director

#38

Age wrote:

[quote]The free mods are helpful but most of us running race prepped cars and all that stuff is either done or not allowed by SE30 rules which is our “home” ruleset.

As has been said, Spec E30s are not going to be competitive in D (TT or PT).I would be inclined to remove my ballast to run lighter in D, but really do I want that hassle just to be mid pack in D against the local turbos? No.

As a real example, our schedule this month in Norcal has PT and SE30 running back to back - even if we were so inclined to modify the car between sessions, there’s no time to modify the car and run both series at a competitive level.

SE30s have a unique rule set much like SM. The lap times speak for themselves when compared to each other and with PT. SMs class as E and are slightly faster (based on lap times) than SE30s which are D. It doesn’t make sense. Versus a re-baselining of the E30 platform, the easy solution is a guest class in E for SE30, just as is done for several other race classes, as well as Enduros. The class compliance rules could be manageable by the SE30 director and NASA tech as they are for SE30 so PT/TT directors don’t have to learn a whole new ruleset. The SE30 rules are pretty stable so it is unlikely changes would come that would require a re-evaluation / upclassing.

In my mind, the outcome is that SE30s would run in PT for fun against each other, and for extra track time. But we are all competitive by nature and want to well in our class and that’s what creates this internal conflict. Judging from the official responses I don’t see it changing via email and bulletin boards. A well-thought out approach at an “official” level and in person or on the phone to create a situation where SE30 will be competitive in PT or TT for points. Until then it’s just a fun run against other SE30s that choose to supersize into PT for extra track time.[/quote]

Im in close contact with the national PT director almost daily and we discuss, debate and argue all the time. Part of this proccess actually results in some good things for the spec series cars. For example I gained a few more free mods this year with stress bars, lowered the points for the front vailence and lower stress bars. We also nailed down a MAX power to weight limit for each class. This means some of the top PTE cars wont be PTE next year without adding ballast or simply moving up a class. PTE now has an adjusted hp to weight max limit of of 16.75-1. I think all these things help the E30’s some. The problem is we have 2 distinctly diferent set of rules. The PT formula works fairly well for taking every brand of car out there and allowing each owner to choose what mods work best for their individual car to be competitive in PT. The E30 ruleset is more to keep costs down which does a great job of creating good close racing within E30 but keeps the cars slower than the closest competitive class for PT.

Believe it or not, im on your side. I discussed last night with Greg the fact of the championship this year, the fastest E30 time was more than 4 seconds behind PTE’s fastest time. There is a chance that a waiver could be given to those cars that would legally point out to PTD to still run in PTE, so dont think that we are wasting your time dicussing this on message boards and emails. There is another way around it as well. You have the right to submit a dyno sheet and weight to be reclassed. This would probably be the best way to get around the points issue and still run in PTE. If you want specific info on how to do this, ask me.

I havent taken the time (yet) to look at the E30 rules as far as whats changed so, my apologies for not knowing there were changes.

The other issue is, the fact of the matter is that all RD’s (and im sure they dont even realize it) need to have a strong knowlege of the SpecE30, SF, SM rules to be fair to all competitors. I know I learned alot last year at the championship as the RD, not just with all the different rules but also about “what came stock on this car”. So many people either dont know or “dont want to believe”. LOL!!

So, im trying to establish a way to get anyone who wants to run in PT with a Spec car a chance to be competitive.

Sorry for the novel. :slight_smile:

Shawn Meze
Socal PT & TT co director.
2008 Championship group J race director

#39

Just received today from John Lindsey:

"After much discussion and some research into what to do here, we have created a new base class for the 325is model that should allow most SE30 cars to run in PTE. We did not want to do a blanket translation for a number of reasons, so this is the best we could do and a SpecE30 car with the stock 325is front fascia, wing, and LSD should point out into PTE without a problem.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention and hopefully this helps you all out running the car in multiple classes."

I already asked when we’ll see a new rules PDF and am awaiting that response.
Hope that helps.

#40

Cool.

I was thinking about this last weekend when I was talking to one of my old DE students. He’s got only a couple dozen events under his belt and he won PTE at CMP last weekend in 1:50.X. He’s got fine skills for the limited amount of experience. And he runs times 4 secs faster then my PR.

When my former student and I talked I was reminded of this thread. It occured to me that if the National office decided that we had too many mods for PTE they needed their collective heads examined.