Spec E30 vs. 944 Spec

#1

In the RM region, 944 Spec has gotten a jump on Spec E30 so I need to come up with some reasons to stem the landslide of rookies going to that class (they have about 11 in the works here now). Below is a post I made in response to a local guy asking for a comparison on the two classes (‘Chuck’ is the RM region 944 Spec series director).
Any other thoughts to add?
thanks,
bruce

here’s my take on spec e30 vs. 944 spec

  • as Chuck noted, both series will ultimately be fun classes.
  • GRM named Spec E30 their "Editors’ Choice" http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=601 and they are documenting a build right now http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/news/category/project-cars/nasa-spec-e30-bmw/ so there will be lots of interest in the class.
  • largest group of spec e30’s are on the east coast - the Mid-atlantic region recently had a 27 car field at VIR http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=735&highlight=spec . The california regions are growing fast now also. Locally, it will likely be 2008 before we have a comparable field size to the 944’s
  • Spec E30 is more ‘spec’ than 944 Spec. For example, Spec e30 requires a specific shock, spring and sway bar setup. This means that everyone is more closely matched and you do not spend all your time tinkering with the suspension setup, wondering if it is you or the setup, or spending money on chasing this year’s hot setup. Some people like tinkering, others don’t. Spec E30 is more of a driver-comparison series.
  • the same-spec nature of the cars means that you could fly in to a remote track and race in an arrive-and-drive spec e30 car that feels just like your own. It will be easier to compare yourself as a driver to others because there is less influence of equipment variations. Rental spec e30 cars are popping up around the country. Infineon, Thunderhill and Laguna Seca and VIR are on my must drive someday wish list.
  • Spec E30 has stronger "benevolent dictators" controlling the rules and who have gone to great lengths to adhere to the initial philosophy of not allowing rules creep. 944 spec has been going through some growing pains with their rules and lost a number of racers in the latest round of allowed parts takebacks.
  • there is a strong online community at www.spece30.com - so there is a lot of camaraderie off track as well. There are new regional sub-forums to make it easier for people in an area to "hang out" and help each other out.
  • spec e30 cars are somewhat faster than the 944’s (mainly six vs. 4 cyl, I think)
  • in spec e30, it’s easy to make the regulation weight without removing the dashboard :wink:
  • you can run an unmodified Spec E30 in BMWCCA club racing KP class if that interests you (although not many CR races nearby here)
  • it seems that the e30’s are easier to work on (physical access)
  • the more upright windshield on an e30 looks like it will give more window escape room if you’re running a halo seat
  • a 4 door spec e30 would allow you room in the rear to carry stuff to/from the track
  • there were 2.4 million e30’s made, so parts are reasonable and junkyard sources or parts cars are plentiful. I don’t know much about 944 parts costs.
  • costs should be comparable for the same level of car prep for safety and reliability (proactively replacing parts to ensure a trouble free weekend). There are spec 944 cars on the market for $10,500 for example. Rich Vogl has built his car for <$5K, mine is trending towards $10K (lots of new parts). There are a lot of things that you can leave for &quot;later&quot; to stage the expenses. There is a ton of DIY how-to’s on the internet to follow. I’m doing all the work (except cage) on my car to use it as a learning experience also.
  • one of the goals of spec e30 is to create a race car that is satisfying but not so high strung that it becomes a maintenance/tweaking nightmare. Anecdotally I hear a lot of guys don’t have to do much on race weekends other than check fluids and tire pressures.
  • I do plan to start drumming up sponsorship support like Chuck has and I like his ideas on $ sharing. Spec e30 is eligible for toyo bucks as well.
  • and, apparently,
    944=ugly
    e30=sexy
    :slight_smile:
    cheers,
    bruce
#2

Great job, Bruce. We can use more of us in Oh/Ind region too. So, I may steal your words if I get the chance to influence someone here.
Tom

#3

Uggg. I can’t wait to run out there with those 944 bozzos.

Funny thing, I have never seen a 944 in the HPDE groups. They all went straight to W2W.

Good writeup Bruce. We gotta start rallying to get the E30 guys out of the woodwork. I spoke to a guy that had some E30 parts for sale yesterday. He has a ‘es’ that he may conver to an ‘i’ and go E30 racin’.

#4

Brian posted his response to the same question a while ago. Here it is:

I’d be glad to answer your questions and I’ll do my best to give you a somwhat biased appraisal of both series.

944 Cup Pros:

  1. Porsche 944’s look cool and are a hoot to drive on track.
  2. Because of the low &quot;initial&quot; costs and the fact that 944’s look cool, lots of guys have built them into race cars…So the 944 field is fairly large 15+ at every event.
  3. Good group of guys to hang with off the track…

944 Cup Cons:

  1. Budget…The 944 was never designed for track duty…things on the 944 break and they break often. Parts are hard to find and expensive when you do find them. Servicing a 944 is best left to professionals since any mistake will cost big money to fix later. The engine is unreliable when driven at the limit. No one rebuilds 944 engines cheaply. Plan on $10k+ for a ‘rebuilt engine’ or $1500 to $2k for a decent junkyard motor.

  2. Tires…To be competitive you need a &quot;new&quot; set of Hoosiers every other weekend, if not every weekend. At $900 to $1000, for a set of tires, it gets to be really expensive if you want to run up front. I asked the series director about switching to a lower cost &quot;spec&quot; tire and was shot down.

At the time, I had the money to spend but it was frustrating spending $2500 to $4000 per weekend to put tires on the car, fix the things that broke and repair the damage I received on track… All the &quot;overhead&quot; was taking away from the fun factor. This number I’m sure is not typical and probably high for a 944… It’s just what happened to me.

  1. The rules in the 944 Cup are viewed by some in the series as more guidelines than actual rules. There are competitors in the 944 Cup series with some robust racing budgets and don’t mind spending $$ to assure themselves a place on the podium. No one in the series will openly admit to outright cheating, but it happens more often than you’d like to see. Moral of the story here is drivers with deep pockets, not outright skill, have the advantage in 944 Cup.

  2. When I was still part of the series contact between the ‘front runners’ in the 944-cup series was fairly commonplace. I was involved in three metal-to-metal incidences, none of which where my fault, and my complaints fell on deaf ears. The series director told me &quot;that’s racing&quot; OBTW that was his attitude until &quot;he&quot; got punted. Then his attitude changed. The offender was given a 13/13 and asked not to return for the next 4 race weekends…I don’t like double standards.

From what I’ve seen in the past year, the 944 series has gotten alot better with on track contact so I don’t think it is as big of an issue as it once was.

  1. Just my humble opinion and I’m sure others might disagree, but…. The 944 Series lacks strong impartial leadership. I didn’t see it 2 years ago when I was involved. Maybe that’s changed. Again this is just one person’s opinion, so please take it with a grain of salt.

Spec E30 Pro’s:

  1. The series is alot of fun…and I couldn’tt honestly say that about the 944 Cup. The Spec E30 racers are a great bunch of guys and I like everyone I race with. We are a tight group and alot younger than you might think. I would guess mid 30’s is about average.

  2. The Rules…The Spec e30 series is based on a set of simple, easy to follow, fair rules that all competitors must adhere to. No cheating is tolerated. Cars are randomly dyno tested and inspected by series officials for compliance. I love this aspect of the series. The series director is a super guy with years of racing experience. His leadership is firm, evenhanded and commonsensical. Puts fun and safety at the top of the series priorities.

The rules specify what parts/mods are legal and what things aren’t. No gray area. All the required race parts to convert an E30 into a racecar are spelled out in the rules. Everyone runs the same stuff…including spec toyo tires. (Not the best all out track tire, but good grip, great lifespan and very low cost) The end result is that drivers with skill, not deep pockets end up on the podium.

  1. Budget…Build costs are very low and the BMW E30 is an incredibly reliable platform. The engine is so overbuilt they almost never break. Parts are plentiful and cheap. If you need an entire new driveline (engine and tranny) you can get one for less than a grand. Car is very easy to work on and the driver can do most things at home.

I budget about $800 per weekend and that includes Gas, Hotel, Registration fees, and replacement of consumables (Tires, brake pads, rotors etc).

  1. Reliability…So far I have about 2 dozen race weekends on my E30 with zero DNF’s…simply incredible reliability! The reliability is not just in my particular car, but the entire field of e30’s. All the Spec E30 cars seem to finish, week in and week out. In contrast, the 944’s usually suffer from 10-20% attrition during a race weekend. You can check the race stat’s on the NASA website to confirm this.

Spec E30 Cons:

  1. The cars are…well sort-a ugly. Lets face it, the E30 is a shoebox without alot of pizzazz. It’s not a miata, so at least it has that going for it. This is just my opinion and I’m sure lots of folks LOVE the looks of their E30.

  2. Lots of newbie’s with the occasionally over aggressive driver…but this could be said of any racing series. The series has grown in popularity immensely in the last 2 years. Lots of new, drivers showing up. In the beginning, most of the E30 competitors were &quot;old / salty&quot; track dogs that new how to drive or new enough at least not to push things too far. That dynamic has changed a bit with the new blood coming in the series. Incidences of on track paint swapping are up slightly. The good news here is that the series director has taken a very hard line on metal to metal contact and the offenders are few in numbers and well known. The director has done a superb job dealing with this issue. You can read this link if you need more info. I think it’s a growing pain for the series that will pass.

http://spece30.com/index.php?option=com_mamboboard&Itemid=65&func=view&id=4299&catid=16&limit=10&limitstart=20

  1. Not really a Con, so I’ll put it in the middle…The series is still a little small. We have about 25ish cars total built or being built in the series. On an average weekend 10-12 cars will show. Not bad, but it could be a bit bigger. Participation seems to be ‘track’ related. VIR is always a big crowd just because it’s such a nice track. CMP or Summit is usually a bit smaller.

To summarize, both series has it’s goods and others….For me, I race for fun. Spending lots of money or having the car in the air at the mechanics, isn’t fun. I’m not always the fastest guy at the track but I see a few podiums here and there. In the Spec E30 series, its nice to know that when you get there, you’ve earned it.

Hope this helps and If you make it out to a track event swing buy…I drive the &quot;Fly Navy&quot; car.

Take care…and drive safe.

brain

Post edited by: brain, at: 2006/07/19 06:57

Post edited by: brain, at: 2006/07/19 20:14

#5

Seems like every race I’ve been to, someone has a 944 motor gernade on them. I can think of only one e30 failure this year. The cost of replacing motors in each of these cars doesn’t compare.

#6

Being a competitor in '44Cup for 4 years and now in my first year in SpecE30, I’d like to share comments on the comments so far:

Bruce - the only comment that I disgree with in your post is the &quot;specE30 faster statement&quot;. Check the results. Front runners in '44Cup are (slightly) faster. The HP is about equal (slight advantage to '44’s from legal mods), the 44 is heavier, and the 44 gets Hoosiers. Let’s call them equal.

As for Brain’s comments, lots to disagree with.

'44Cup pros - Agree on all counts

'44Cup Cons -

#1 Budget…The 944 was never designed for track duty…things on the 944 break and they break often.

Disagree. My 944 was completely reliable. Did a bone stock motor rebuild of a 153K motor (hone, new rings, new bearings, valve job) including all of the labor to pull the old engine, pull the 2.7 from the donor and reinstall 2.7 in racecar for under $7500. Lasted all 4 seasons and a rookie just posted 2nd in qual. at Hyperfest with it. The key is to build it &quot;stock&quot; and not mess around with balance/blueprint and trying to lighten up components.

#2 Tires…To be competitive you need a &quot;new&quot; set of Hoosiers every other weekend, if not every weekend.

Completely disagree. The biggest myth in racing (any series). I bought a set of 1 year old Hoosiers from a guy’s basement to use for all of the practice sessions at Nationals. Using a rented car with 131 documented HP, koni shocks, and the old tires, I qualified pole on Sat with a 1:46.225, Cobetto qualified pole in E30 with a 1:46.6xx. Also data to contradict the notion that E30’s are faster. I used 3 sets of Hoosiers per season in the 44Cup. 14 or so heat cycles are possible with even wear provided that you have a good setup. Also, I ran 225-45/15’s - a set is under $700.

#3 Agree Completely - this was my primary motivation for switching to SpecE30.

#4 Don’t think contact is any different in either series. Both have &quot;rookies&quot; that cause grief to the leaders of the other group. Both have been agressive at times.

SpecE30 Pros

#3 / #4 - I am having Brain’s 944 experience with the E30 so far. Not enough of the stock parts from a high-mileage streetcar were replaced with new components before hitting the track.

SpecE30 Cons

Yeah - the car is ugly and &quot;racing BMWs&quot; doesn’t have the same cachet as &quot;racing Porsches&quot; but with a 944, who are we kidding anyway? :laugh:

#7

Hi Eric,
in the RM region, they’re only running 944 Spec, not Cup, so the SE30’s are faster.
thanks for the input
bruce

erupert66 wrote:

[quote]Being a competitor in '44Cup for 4 years and now in my first year in SpecE30, I’d like to share comments on the comments so far:

Bruce - the only comment that I disgree with in your post is the &quot;specE30 faster statement&quot;. Check the results. Front runners in '44Cup are (slightly) faster. The HP is about equal (slight advantage to '44’s from legal mods), the 44 is heavier, and the 44 gets Hoosiers. Let’s call them equal.

As for Brain’s comments, lots to disagree with.

'44Cup pros - Agree on all counts

'44Cup Cons -

#1 Budget…The 944 was never designed for track duty…things on the 944 break and they break often.

Disagree. My 944 was completely reliable. Did a bone stock motor rebuild of a 153K motor (hone, new rings, new bearings, valve job) including all of the labor to pull the old engine, pull the 2.7 from the donor and reinstall 2.7 in racecar for under $7500. Lasted all 4 seasons and a rookie just posted 2nd in qual. at Hyperfest with it. The key is to build it &quot;stock&quot; and not mess around with balance/blueprint and trying to lighten up components.

#2 Tires…To be competitive you need a &quot;new&quot; set of Hoosiers every other weekend, if not every weekend.

Completely disagree. The biggest myth in racing (any series). I bought a set of 1 year old Hoosiers from a guy’s basement to use for all of the practice sessions at Nationals. Using a rented car with 131 documented HP, koni shocks, and the old tires, I qualified pole on Sat with a 1:46.225, Cobetto qualified pole in E30 with a 1:46.6xx. Also data to contradict the notion that E30’s are faster. I used 3 sets of Hoosiers per season in the 44Cup. 14 or so heat cycles are possible with even wear provided that you have a good setup. Also, I ran 225-45/15’s - a set is under $700.

#3 Agree Completely - this was my primary motivation for switching to SpecE30.

#4 Don’t think contact is any different in either series. Both have &quot;rookies&quot; that cause grief to the leaders of the other group. Both have been agressive at times.

SpecE30 Pros

#3 / #4 - I am having Brain’s 944 experience with the E30 so far. Not enough of the stock parts from a high-mileage streetcar were replaced with new components before hitting the track.

SpecE30 Cons

Yeah - the car is ugly and &quot;racing BMWs&quot; doesn’t have the same cachet as &quot;racing Porsches&quot; but with a 944, who are we kidding anyway? :laugh:[/quote]

#8

leggwork wrote:

[quote]Hi Eric,
in the RM region, they’re only running 944 Spec, not Cup, so the SE30’s are faster.
thanks for the input
bruce
[/quote]

They WILL be faster. :lol:

#9

944’s aren’t real porsches :woohoo:

#10

I have had both 944 and 325is track cars in essentially cup and spec configuration respectively. My $0.02;

The 50/50 (nearly) weight distribution of the 944 is nice and in my opinion makes the 944 easier to drive at the limit.

The 944 has better brakes which also contributes to being easier to drive at the limit.

The 944 feels more like a sports car.

Having said that;

The 325is is much cheaper to run / maintain / repair. The best example is in the driveline. A LSD for a 944 is $1,500+ IF you can find one (most 944 are open diff.) Plus a clutch job on a 944 is also $1,500+.

The 325is has more power and a broader torque band which makes it feel faster.

The 325is sounds much better (which is important to me).

Finally, to me there is something &quot;special&quot; about being able to beat a highly regarded (in it’s day) sports car with a sedan. :evil:

Don

#11

I’m the guy Bruce is talking about. I’ve pretty much decided to go Spec E30. I based my decision mostly on the fact that I fit better in the E30 than the 944. I’m also going to be driving the car to the track and the E30 will be a bit more comfy for that.

I’m currently on the hunt for a good 325is to use. My plan is to slowly turn it into a Spec E30 car, so initially it’ll be mostly streetable.

I’d appreciate a heads up if anyone knows of a good car, particularly if it’s in Colorado.

#12

docwyte wrote:

[quote]I’m the guy Bruce is talking about. I’ve pretty much decided to go Spec E30. I based my decision mostly on the fact that I fit better in the E30 than the 944. I’m also going to be driving the car to the track and the E30 will be a bit more comfy for that.

I’m currently on the hunt for a good 325is to use. My plan is to slowly turn it into a Spec E30 car, so initially it’ll be mostly streetable.

I’d appreciate a heads up if anyone knows of a good car, particularly if it’s in Colorado.[/quote]

Here are a few. Easy to find one around 2 thousand. Good luck, I’d love to have a few guys to run with at Pueblo, LaJunta, Hastings, Sandia…etc. :smiley:

http://denver.craigslist.org/car/357398055.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/car/372593357.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/car/369943167.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/car/343967332.html (this one is questionable, owner probably does not know)