Some pre-season work on GRM project Spec E30

#61

I am absolutely shocked. Scott, why didn’t you flip the wheel so that the weights were facing down (lower CG)?

That’s all I got. Have fun this weekend. I’ll see you mother effers at HYPERFEST.

-Vic

#62

Carter wrote:

words to live by in the racing world…any time you are pushing the bounds of the rules, you risk spending time/money/effort on something you might only be able to use for 1 weekend (if that)…been there, done that and probably still have the parts lying around, lol…

there will always be those that push the bounds of the rules and those that think doing so is cheating (or not within the spirit of racing)…

#63

GRMScott wrote:

I am not climbing in anybody’s trunk for $5! :blink:

*but if there was beer in there…I’d consider it!!

#64

Gasman wrote:

[quote]As far as I’m concerned the rules on this subject are empathically clear. This isn’t a debate about a grey area. Unless the weight is added to the passenger area ahead of the passenger seat, it is not legal…period. If you want to make it legal…fine, I have no problem with it. But you cannot say this is legal by saying it isn’t totally illegal. That is bullshit.
[/quote]

judging by the rules discussion (which is a great thing), the rule isn’t quite as clear as you seem to think…

this IS a debate/discussion about a grey area…from my understanding there is no weight limit on spare tires so why would someone be able to use the heaviest possible spare wheel/tire that will fit (someone mentioned making a super heavy custom wheel) but someone else could not add some weight to the wheel? Also, do the rules say your spare has to be filled with air vs some other, heavier substance? (i don’t know, i haven’t read the spec e30 rules lately)

if something isn’t (totally) illegal, then it is legal, right? that’s why it’s a grey area…

plenty of spec e30 racers have been pushing the bounds of the rules since the series started, most just don’t write articles about it :wink:

imho, people like this are good for racing series’…pushing the limits of the rules and the grey areas usually end up with the rules being made more clear and improving the series…

i wouldn’t get too worked up over this issue…any performance advantage will be minor and it won’t move someone to the front of the pack that wouldn’t normally be there…also, i’m sure this will help clear up some issues in the weight/ballast/spare tire rules…

you guys have fun at roebling!

#65

Why didn’t you just put a tube and calcium chloride (or non-corrosive Rim Guard) in the tire? Its what they run in tractor tires to add weight and wouldn’t effect the look or usefulness of the spare at all. For that tire, you should be able to get about 30 lbs of the stuff in there…

Any tire shop that does equipment or ag tires can do this. They just inject it through the valve stem. CC has to be run in a tube because if exposed to the air will cause the wheel to rust. Not that any of our e30’s have ever seen any rust…:wink:

Unless I’m missing something this would be a pretty slick alternative to the swanky weld on spinners…though much less bling.:laugh:

#66

Hunt’s post is 100% correct.

Simon’s post is 100% correct.

Geiger’s post is 110% correct.

Let the rules group to discuss the ballast. I’ll back away from the keyboard and not overstep my boundry as a racer. In my experience with 3 cars of different corner weights and weight distributions: the weight doesn’t make squat for difference. Adjust over/understeer with the two things that you can adjust,air pressure and sway bar. I’m no faster or slower in either of the cars because of the weight.Then again, I need to learn to drive. When I reach the talent level of Clay, Thomas, Skeen, Allen, Hall, Cobetto, Hunt, Moses, Hunter, White, JP, Mueller, others out west,others out in front of me I’ll be moreso concerned. With confidence, I’ll also find that these racers are following the rules to the letter. Self policing and knowledge of how these cars work are wonderful things.

Skeen’s post is 110% correct.Silly topic, let’s move on.

Regards, Robert Patton

PS… Would you not agree this has been great entertainment. Thanks, Scott

#67

David, Until now, if the rules don’t say you can do it, the assumption has always been that you cannot do it. If you could add weight to a tire, the rule would read spare tires may be “modified”. Again, the rules do not say this.

9.2.2. A car found to be underweight after a qualifying session shall (3.1) have securely mounted ballast installed in the passenger compartment to meet the minimum weight requirement without exceeding the maximum ballast weight allowed. Alternatively, a spare tire may (3.1) be placed in the spare tire well and appropriately secured. The car shall (3.1) start at the back of the grid for the race if it meets the minimum weight requirement.

Does anyone think the trunk is actually part of the passenger compartment? Help me understand how that is a grey area? For now, I’m done with this subject, see you at the track.

#68

Again, there’s dozens of covert ways we could have achieved the same end result, but as our friends at Super Street magazine learned long ago, chrome moves issues!

#69

Gasman wrote:

[quote]David, Until now, if the rules don’t say you can do it, the assumption has always been that you cannot do it. If you could add weight to a tire, the rule would read spare tires may be “modified”. Again, the rules do not say this.

9.2.2. A car found to be underweight after a qualifying session shall (3.1) have securely mounted ballast installed in the passenger compartment to meet the minimum weight requirement without exceeding the maximum ballast weight allowed. Alternatively, a spare tire may (3.1) be placed in the spare tire well and appropriately secured. The car shall (3.1) start at the back of the grid for the race if it meets the minimum weight requirement.

Does anyone think the trunk is actually part of the passenger compartment? Help me understand how that is a grey area? For now, I’m done with this subject, see you at the track.[/quote]

i don’t think anyone thinks the trunk is part of the passenger compartment…but spare tires go in the spare tire well, which is in the trunk, correct?

don’t get so hung up on the exact wording of the rules…the rules don’t say you can use a wheel with your spare tire do they? but it’s still ok to have that spare tire mounted to a wheel, right? also if you want to get really picky, the rules don’t say that spare tire is allowed to be filled (with air), but that’s ok to do, right? - not everyone see’s the rules as black or white…there are plenty of grey areas

also, i’ll ask again…is it ok for someone to find/make the heaviest spare wheel/tire combo that will fit in the spare tire well? there is no weight restriction on the spare tire, correct? then why wouldn’t it be legal for someone to be crafty and add weight to a wheel (assuming it’s secure)? - the rule in the weight/ballast/spare tire area could use some clarification i think…

#70

I’m guessing most of the spares already in use in the series have balancing weights on them.

#71

Here’s another thought when it comes to weight distribution:

Early cars have a disadvantage because of the massive bumpers. I’ve built both styles, and there is a good 50lbs difference from the bumpers (and mounting pieces). That’s weight that is far away from your CG, and is obviously BAD. Yet the rules won’t allow you to swap bumpers. So while you’re nit-picking over 50 pounds being moved to the trunk, what about the 50 pounds that the early-car-guys have to deal with at the ends?

-Vic

#72

Vic, I would think that would be an advantage in Mid-Atlantic demolition derby’s. :laugh:

#73

Gasman wrote:

I spit coffee out of my nose! :silly:

#74

Gasman wrote:

I might need some side bumpers too!:stuck_out_tongue:

#75

I’m sure the folks at GRM are already on that.

#76

Since chrome is obviously the wave of the racing future, we could go all-out with some spec bumper guards…

#77

GRMScott wrote:

yep…another item not specifically allowed by the rules…

#78

victorhall wrote:

[quote]Here’s another thought when it comes to weight distribution:

Early cars have a disadvantage because of the massive bumpers. I’ve built both styles, and there is a good 50lbs difference from the bumpers (and mounting pieces). That’s weight that is far away from your CG, and is obviously BAD. Yet the rules won’t allow you to swap bumpers. So while you’re nit-picking over 50 pounds being moved to the trunk, what about the 50 pounds that the early-car-guys have to deal with at the ends?

-Vic[/quote]

Interesting, is that the root of the seemingly major weight differences people are seeing between cars that can’t get down to minimum and those that require big chunks of mass to get up to the minimum?

#79

GRMScott wrote:

No, it’s the cages that are the great un-equalizer.

#80

Craig,
I’m sure the cages make a big difference, but on 2 identically prepared cages (one with old bumpers, and one with new) I have seen a 50 lbs difference, which I attribute to the bumpers.
-Vic