r888's for all

#1

http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/2008/nasa-announces-toyo-tire-r888.html

#2

Interesting. Does that mean SpecE30 guys can use their RA-1s for the first two races next year as well?

#3

:pinch: Shhhhh… to tell Vic about this. :laugh: :lol: :silly:

#4

It would seem so since Spec E30 was on the list of spec classes.

#5

It seems like this is the case since spec e30 is on the list, but the regulations say otherwise. I think we need to have an official answer on this…

#6

If this does apply to us it is very unfortunate. I have found that I am about .5 secs. faster on RA1s. At the last summit point race, the top 5 qualified within .7 secs. of each other. There would be a huge advantage to have RA1s. Besides the first two races, they can be used for the rest of the season in “wet” races. If a race is declared a wet race but it dries or is drying by the start time, the people on RA1s are going to have an advantage. That means if someone keeps a set of RA1s all year for “strategy” then everyone else will have to do the same to stay competitive. I’ve still got a set but I kinda dont want to be “that guy”.

Ugh. I thought we were through with this :(.

#7

Interesting! Sounds like we’ll need a rules clarification for the first 2 races.
CONVENE THE SECRET CIRCLE OF THE BROTHERHOOD!
I’ll have my response ready:

EDIT: No offense!!!

#8

victorhall wrote:

[quote]Interesting! Sounds like we’ll need a rules clarification for the first 2 races.
CONVENE THE SECRET CIRCLE OF THE BROTHERHOOD!
I’ll have my response ready:

EDIT: No offense!!![/quote]

“I said with all due respect!!!” - Ricky Bobby.

#9

There has all ready been a clarification, NASA makes the rules on tires, NASA is who DQ"D vic, so NASA has now said we can run RA1’s, it is that simple. We can run RA1’s for the first 2 races. I doubt anyone has any decent one’s left, we have killed them all running enduro’s in the SE.

Al

#10

I guess TOYO still has a warehouse full of RA 1’s they need to sell. Thanks NASA for the rules stability. Also Thanks TOYO for stringing me along and BS’ing me on the Toyo bucks. I still have a couple of calls to make, I am done with Angela, she has not been straight with me all year. The latest is the form I sent was for the Nationals, I kept a copy and it clearly says “Regional Race Result” for non spec tire classes.

How the hell can they say you have to buy this tire by this date and then come back 6 months later and say you can go back…like I said TOYO must have some RA1’s they need to sell.

Al

#11

I think Nasa needs to reinstate Vic’s win AND send him some TOYO bucks for it.

Al

#12

FARTBREF wrote:

[quote]I think Nasa needs to reinstate Vic’s win AND send him some TOYO bucks for it.

Al[/quote]

I LOVE IT!!
I’ll wear women’s underwear over my racesuit for the entire season if that happens :slight_smile:
-Vic

#13

Does this mean we can use the RA-1’s for “Wet Races” as declared by the officials? That would be great.

Michael
#36
Great Lakes Region

#14

FARTBREF wrote:

[quote]There has all ready been a clarification, NASA makes the rules on tires, NASA is who DQ"D vic, so NASA has now said we can run RA1’s, it is that simple. We can run RA1’s for the first 2 races. I doubt anyone has any decent one’s left, we have killed them all running enduro’s in the SE.

Al[/quote]

Al is mostly right. NASA doesn’t actually make the rules but they approve and enforce them.

The Spec E30 Regional Directors and I agree on the Spec E30 Rules and I send them to NASA for their approval. So yes, NASA is the final word on any rule for any series that races during a NASA weekend, including Spec E30 of course. And this includes implementation and enforcement.

And every NASA Region is supposed to enforce all NASA National approved Rules. And if any driver feels that a rule is not being enforced by the Region, he can protest a driver who is out of compliance. If the Race Director rules that the car is legal (refuses to sanction the offending driver), the protesting driver can appeal, all the way to the NASA Executive Director. See the CCR for the actual procedures.

Regarding the tires for next season, Spec E30 wants to do what works best for the Spec E30 drivers, and what fits NASA National’s program. NASA and Toyo asked Spec E30 to go to the R888 after a six month period from the time the announcement was made, to the time the Rule took effect, which we did. And Spec E30 was assured by Toyo, prior to our agreement, that all the testing had been done and that the exact same compound was retained from the RA-1.

As we all know, the R888 and the RA-1 behave differently, which is why we need to have one spec tire that is used on all Spec E30 cars. Spec E30 doesn’t really care which tire is used, we just want the cars to be on the same tire.

Regarding the first two races next year and the officially declared “wet” races, I will ask NASA how this new announcement affects Spec E30. We will then post the results of NASA’s decision. If you want to contribute to this process, I suggest you send an email to your local Spec E30 Regional Director, to me, or to the National NASA Competition Manager - competition@drivenasa.com.

Also, we are currently trying to build a Forum on this site where Spec Regional Directors can post announcements that affect all Spec E30 drivers, rules clarifications, etc. We appreciate our drivers who help new racers, regarding simple rules interpretations but this new forum will only accept posts from our Regional Directors. The Regional Directors will discuss most issues (that are not obvious) prior to one of us posting the clarification. Another club racing group does this and I have been told that it works well.

Lastly, regarding the latest Rules adjustments that were recently agreed upon by the Regional Directors and sent to NASA; I have not heard back from NASA on their approval. As soon as I do hear from them, the Rules will be posted.

Carter Hunt
Spec E30 National Series Director

#15

Carter, I want to make sure this is clear. The rules are created by the Regional Directors, correct?

So it seems from the statements above, the decision to move to R888s was made by the Regional Directors and was not a mandate from NASA? Is this correct?

If the goal was to have only one Spec tire, why not keep the RA1 as the spec tire for 2008 and switch to the R888 for 2009? Spec Miata still ran the RA1 tires throughout all of 2008.

If the Regional Directors make the rules, why ask NASA for how it affects SpecE30? Why do we need to change the process for this one issue?

This is a good first start to transparency. See my comments below.

I have pretty much stayed out of the comments back and forth regarding all of the latest issues but my patience for going with the flow has worn thin. There were recent posts that have asked for transparency in the decision making process. This issue is the latest one that provides an argument towards more visibility by the racers into the decision making process. I am not suggesting a democratic process, just a view in the process.

This past year, the number of racers who have many concerns and complaints regarding rules changes and other seemingly arbitrary decisions has reached critical mass. I personally have spoken to 15+ racers that have concerns about the decision making process. In our current state, that is not a select few. The perception is this: Decisions are being made to benefit a select few and they are arbitrary decisions. This may or may not be factual.

I believe perception is reality in society today. It is unfortunate but true.

The need to understand how decisions are made will greatly affect the morale of the series. Right now, I believe we are going through growing pains but, with greater visibility, understanding will come.

I have been silent on some of the decisions. I accepted the exhaust rule even though I had a nice one that sounded great and was within the range of other cars from a HP/TQ perspective. I do not like the sound of this exhaust or the fact that I had to remove a perfectly good one. Next is this tires issue. I decided to be legal and not run the RA1s, even in the rain at Mid-Ohio for Nationals, to stay compliant with the rules. I since sold my “twice used in the rain” RA1s and bottle caps because they would no longer be legal in SpecE30.

With this recent decision to allow RA1s, it makes me (and others I assume) really pissed!

Last year, it seemed that NASA National mandated that SpecE30 would use R888s and would no longer be able to use RA1s after June 1st. There was nothing that we could do to lobby that decision. Even though Spec Miata was still allowed to use the RA1s, we were not. My perception was this decision did not make sense as to why one Spec series would be singled out over another.

This week, an announcement was made that 2009 would be the transition year for RA1s to R888. RA1s are now allowed for the first two races of the season and full treads could be used throughout the entire season for “wet” races.

My perception now… Our leadership was not forthcoming on how the decision was made to use the R888s last year.

The posting by Carter leads me to believe (again, perception) that the decision was made by SpecE30 last year to go with the R888 since the Regional Directors make the rules which are approved by NASA national. NASA National did not mandate nor stipulate that SpecE30 must use R888s. The decision was made based on the following (again, perception):

  • There needed to be only one tire in SpecE30
  • R888 is the tire Toyo is pushing moving forward
  • Might as well mandate the R888s now before it becomes mandatory anyway

If my perception was true, I would have been able to swallow the nasty pill and understand the decision making process if indeed this was the justification and it was communicated last year. It would have made the NASA announcement upsetting, but the rationale for the decision was justified. Now, it is downright infuriating that I could have kept my tires for the remainder of this year and there is/was no justification for why it was decided that only R888s would be legal.

Perception… it is a dangerous thing.

Take my perception, multiply it by 15+ other disgruntled racers who have variants of perception, and we now have a very large problem.

I will continue to rant for a little longer so bear with me :slight_smile:

Leadership is a difficult position. There are many competing interests and so little rewards. When a lack of faith in leadership occurs, the organization crumbles. I do not think we are there yet and I hope we never get there.

My proposal to help fix our perception problem is this:

  • Set up a forum in each of the regions where the Regional Directors communicate potential and final rules changes
  • Allow the participating racers from that region to comment on potential rules changes
  • The Regional Director for each region decides, based on the racers comments and his/her own judgment, what would be the best course of action for the rules change
  • The Regional Directors with the National Director get together and decide on how to implement the rules
  • Any rule changes are communicated back to the forum(s) with some high level points as to the reason for the particular rule change

I think the Regional Directors forum is a good first start but I believe the procedures above will reduce the perception problems. Will racers not agree with the decision? Sure, but they will understand the reasons why the decision was made. If the Regional Directors wanted to make it more inclusive, they could (but do not have to) vet what their proposed decision for a rule change will be to their region.

Does this make sense or am I off base?

Thanks to all who read my rant. :slight_smile:

-Steve

#16

it is hard to respond to such a long message … my responses are preceded by

stevekappy wrote:

[quote][quote]
Al is mostly right. NASA doesn’t actually make the rules but they approve and enforce them.

The Spec E30 Regional Directors and I agree on the Spec E30 Rules and I send them to NASA for their approval. So yes, NASA is the final word on any rule for any series that races during a NASA weekend, including Spec E30 of course. And this includes implementation and enforcement.
[/quote]

Carter, I want to make sure this is clear. The rules are created by the Regional Directors, correct?
it is a mix of mandates from NASA, suggestions from regional dirs and decisions by the series director.

So it seems from the statements above, the decision to move to R888s was made by the Regional Directors and was not a mandate from NASA? Is this correct?
no, the second paragraph above says that NASA directed us to switch - we were one of 3 groups that they started with.

If the goal was to have only one Spec tire, why not keep the RA1 as the spec tire for 2008 and switch to the R888 for 2009? Spec Miata still ran the RA1 tires throughout all of 2008.
they wanted to start with a couple of series as their R888 production ramped up

If the Regional Directors make the rules, why ask NASA for how it affects SpecE30? Why do we need to change the process for this one issue?
it is not different from any other decision. NASA directs things that relate to sponsorship, and Toyo is a major sponsor of NASA. The clarification needed is whether this new announcement (first two race part) from NASA applies to Spec E30 when we were already fully switched to R888’s.

This is a good first start to transparency. See my comments below.

I have pretty much stayed out of the comments back and forth regarding all of the latest issues but my patience for going with the flow has worn thin. There were recent posts that have asked for transparency in the decision making process. This issue is the latest one that provides an argument towards more visibility by the racers into the decision making process. I am not suggesting a democratic process, just a view in the process.

This past year, the number of racers who have many concerns and complaints regarding rules changes and other seemingly arbitrary decisions has reached critical mass. I personally have spoken to 15+ racers that have concerns about the decision making process. In our current state, that is not a select few. The perception is this: Decisions are being made to benefit a select few and they are arbitrary decisions. This may or may not be factual.
Carter is working with the reg dirs a lot more now than, say, 6 months ago. The process is to let your views be known to your regional dir and they participate in the rules change process. It would be somewhat chaotic otherwise. I’ve been in groups that publicized the preliminary version of rules changes and it resulted in a lot of unnecessary bickering, and people seem to hold on to the first proposal vs. how it ultimately ended up. Email/posting is often an ineffective way to communicate and I’ve seen lots of arguing based on misunderstandings vs. valid disagreements. In Spec E30 we can change/clarify the rules at any point in the year so one round is not the endpoint. The philosophy remains to have rules stability and the need to have a very good reason to make a change.

I believe perception is reality in society today. It is unfortunate but true.

The need to understand how decisions are made will greatly affect the morale of the series. Right now, I believe we are going through growing pains but, with greater visibility, understanding will come.

I have been silent on some of the decisions. I accepted the exhaust rule even though I had a nice one that sounded great and was within the range of other cars from a HP/TQ perspective. I do not like the sound of this exhaust or the fact that I had to remove a perfectly good one. Next is this tires issue. I decided to be legal and not run the RA1s, even in the rain at Mid-Ohio for Nationals, to stay compliant with the rules. I since sold my “twice used in the rain” RA1s and bottle caps because they would no longer be legal in SpecE30.

With this recent decision to allow RA1s, it makes me (and others I assume) really pissed!
it was a NASA decision, not a Spec E30 decision. Perhaps they were listening to racer feedback about wet weather performance of the R888 (?)

Last year, it seemed that NASA National mandated that SpecE30 would use R888s and would no longer be able to use RA1s after June 1st. There was nothing that we could do to lobby that decision. Even though Spec Miata was still allowed to use the RA1s, we were not. My perception was this decision did not make sense as to why one Spec series would be singled out over another.
944 Spec and one other that I don’t remember were in the same boat

This week, an announcement was made that 2009 would be the transition year for RA1s to R888. RA1s are now allowed for the first two races of the season and full treads could be used throughout the entire season for “wet” races.

My perception now… Our leadership was not forthcoming on how the decision was made to use the R888s last year.
as above, NASA mandate

The posting by Carter leads me to believe (again, perception) that the decision was made by SpecE30 last year to go with the R888 since the Regional Directors make the rules which are approved by NASA national. NASA National did not mandate nor stipulate that SpecE30 must use R888s. The decision was made based on the following (again, perception):

  • There needed to be only one tire in SpecE30
  • R888 is the tire Toyo is pushing moving forward
  • Might as well mandate the R888s now before it becomes mandatory anyway

If my perception was true, I would have been able to swallow the nasty pill and understand the decision making process if indeed this was the justification and it was communicated last year. It would have made the NASA announcement upsetting, but the rationale for the decision was justified. Now, it is downright infuriating that I could have kept my tires for the remainder of this year and there is/was no justification for why it was decided that only R888s would be legal.

Perception… it is a dangerous thing.
there is also a saying about Assuming…

Take my perception, multiply it by 15+ other disgruntled racers who have variants of perception, and we now have a very large problem.

I will continue to rant for a little longer so bear with me :slight_smile:

Leadership is a difficult position. There are many competing interests and so little rewards. When a lack of faith in leadership occurs, the organization crumbles. I do not think we are there yet and I hope we never get there.

My proposal to help fix our perception problem is this:

  • Set up a forum in each of the regions where the Regional Directors communicate potential and final rules changes
  • Allow the participating racers from that region to comment on potential rules changes
  • The Regional Director for each region decides, based on the racers comments and his/her own judgment, what would be the best course of action for the rules change
  • The Regional Directors with the National Director get together and decide on how to implement the rules
  • Any rule changes are communicated back to the forum(s) with some high level points as to the reason for the particular rule change

I think the Regional Directors forum is a good first start but I believe the procedures above will reduce the perception problems. Will racers not agree with the decision? Sure, but they will understand the reasons why the decision was made. If the Regional Directors wanted to make it more inclusive, they could (but do not have to) vet what their proposed decision for a rule change will be to their region.

Does this make sense or am I off base?

Thanks to all who read my rant. :slight_smile:

we are working to bring more process. Let’s let it play out for a while. You should always make your feelings known to your regional director.
thanks
bruce

-Steve[/quote]

#17

Well, let me play devil’s advocate and unintentionally rile everyone up as usual.

Transparency. I don’t think that we are asking for transparency, I think that we are asking for something close to Democracy. We already have transparency. We know how the decision making process works. Regional Spec E30 honchos talk to Carter, agree on something and then present that to NASA for approval. The system is perfectly transparent.

Something close to Democracy. We know that we don’t all have an equal vote. But I think that we have folks that want everyone to be able to verbally weigh in on the decision making process in the hopes of influencing it. Everyone is sure that their take is Right and believe that if they can just get their point across a lot of folks will agree.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with that idea, and I’m not attempting to single out Steve. The problem is in the execution. If everyone tries to be heard in a decision then the result is chaos. We can’t have 100+ guys yammering in a thread at Carter.

The current solution is a Representative Democracy. The Regional Spec E30 guy (or Fl gal) is our representative. We take our concerns and opinions to them and their role is to represent the Regional E30 opinions to Carter.

Steve, we almost already have what you asked for.

  1. How badly do we need regional forums to talk to our own regional honcho? Regional forums to talk to our regional honcho re. rules issues aren’t going to create any magic. What communication barrier exists between the drivers in a region and their Regional?

Not only can a guy just give their regional a call/send email, there’s nothing preventing them from starting a regional forum thread on some issue near to their heart. But what happens is that we create National threads, not Regional threads. That makes me think that the issue is not communication with the Regional but instead a desire to discuss an issue with the whole national audience.

  1. Participating racers from the region comment on potential rules changes. Doesn’t that already happen?

  2. Regional Director decides best course of action based on input and experience. That already happens.

  3. National and Regionals decide. Already happens.

  4. Rule changes posted and basis explained. Already happens.

Re. tires. It’s easy to imagine Carter being told in Fall '07 that Toyo and NASA have agreed that the R888 is to be our 2008 tire. So Carter tells us. The Miata guys, however, hem and haw and are slow to execute.

Keep in mind that I’m making this up.

In early Winter we figure out that we can’t get 14" R888’s. Toyo says “you use 14"ers? We aren’t ready for those yet.” So Carter says we can use 14" RA1’s.

In the late Winter Toyo says “Hey, our R888 production is behind, so go slow on the transition”. The Miata guys go “woohoo, we’re staying on RA1’s”.

Then in the Fall Toyo says “Hey we need to get rid of the last of the RA1 stock, extend the transition a little”. So NASA Marketing initiates some press release to that affect thinking that the result will be only happiness. Then to their surprise, some people are pissed.

Then Carter gets barraged by pissed Spec E30 races and emails NASA Marketing saying “WTF you’re killing me here”? And NASA Marketing says, “but we thought they’d be happy”?

In this imaginary scenario everyone acted with good intentions, yet some racers got punked. When you are at the pointy end of the spear, sometimes the complex structure that supports you makes some calls that do not work out well. Shit happens and we get punked. No one’s fault.

#18

I apologize for the length of my previous message.

A couple of points from the various responses:

[ul]
[li]First, I made my feeling known to my Regional Director :-)[/li]
[li]“Asked” and “Mandate” are two different things. The second paragraph states “asked by NASA” :-)[/li]
[li]It is a correct statement about assumptions but we would not have to assume anything if we had the information to form the correct opinion. The only place I “assumed” anything is that people are upset about this tire issue. Is that a bad assumption? :-)[/li]
[li]I disagree that we need a democracy. NASA is a business. If you want democracy join a racing club. :slight_smile: I do not believe (nor do others that I have spoken with) that there is visibility in the decision making process.[/li]
[li]If you read proposal carefully, I am not suggesting that we open up the decision making process to everyone. I am suggesting we ask opinions on key rules that affect the racers. If we have a clear process of how decisions are made and they are communicated to the racers, decisions will have more visibility.[/li]
[/ul]

I am going to follow up with another post on an example of how my proposal would work so we keep the postings small. :slight_smile:

-Steve

#19

So let’s take this tire issue as a short example of how my proposal would work…

[ul]
[li]NASA approaches the National and Regional Director and states that they want to mandate a tire change to R888s.[/li]
[li]Regional Directors post to the forum that there is going to be a mandated tire change for 2008 starting in June. Comments are welcome but the decision is pretty much set. [/li]
[li]Racers comment (and oh boy do they!)[/li]
[li]Regional Directors take the opinions of their region, formulate a response, and meet together to discuss a response to NASA’s mandate. It might not change NASA’s decision, but they will at least have their concerns heard.[/li]
[li]NASA makes its decision. Regional Directors communicate the decision and the points that were raised to National. [/li]
[/ul]

I believe that this would provide the “voice” of the racers but ultimately the Regional Directors have the final say as to what gets decided and what gets communicated to National.

I hope I made sense… I hope this is not construed as anything but trying to make us better as a series. :slight_smile:

Thanks,

-Steve

#20

stevekappy wrote:

[quote]So let’s take this tire issue as a short example of how my proposal would work…

[ul]
[li]NASA approaches the National and Regional Director and states that they want to mandate a tire change to R888s.[/li]
[li]Regional Directors post to the forum that there is going to be a mandated tire change for 2008 starting in June. Comments are welcome but the decision is pretty much set. [/li]
[li]Racers comment (and oh boy do they!)[/li]
[li]Regional Directors take the opinions of their region, formulate a response, and meet together to discuss a response to NASA’s mandate. It might not change NASA’s decision, but they will at least have their concerns heard.[/li]
[li]NASA makes its decision. Regional Directors communicate the decision and the points that were raised to National. [/li]
[/ul]

I believe that this would provide the “voice” of the racers but ultimately the Regional Directors have the final say as to what gets decided and what gets communicated to National.

I hope I made sense… I hope this is not construed as anything but trying to make us better as a series. :slight_smile:

Thanks,

-Steve[/quote]

With the exception of driver’s communicating with their Regional via their own forum, this is pretty much how it already works, isn’t it?

Has there been a clear propensity for driver’s communicating with their regional via the forum? I mean we can do that right now by creating a thread in a regional forum, correct? But are we doing that?

I understand that folks are pissed at what might seem sometimes to be a capricious rule making process. But the Regionals and Carter aren’t free to do whatever they want.

A entirely reasonable response to the perception of capricious rule making from above is to want more driver input into the rule making process. But that has to be done carefully.

I acknowledge that I really haven’t been around long enough to know shit. But I think that the current system of Regionals representing our views to Carter is reasonable. I think mostly folks are just pissed about the latest chapter in the R888 saga.

Why have a regional forum to talk to your Regional Director? Just create an issue oriented thread.