r888's for all


#21

At minimum, Vic Hall needs his victory restored and Toyo owes him some money.

I’m hesitant to say this, but I would love to see us look at other tire options. Per James Clay’s suggestion, I ran Nitto’s tire for the enduro this past Friday and loved the way the car handled on them. The cost of a set of Nitto’s is significantly less than Toyo 888’s. I don’t have a clue how well they hold up and heat cycle over time, but I would love to see some testing done to answer that question. If the Nitto is a less expensive tire, shouldn’t we consider it?


#22

why?, at the time it was clear what our rules were.

IMHO, tire choices are out of our hands now given the money that Toyo is undoubtedly paying NASA and the sponsorship $ they are putting up.
bruce

b]Gasman wrote:[/b]

[quote]At minimum, Vic Hall needs his victory restored and Toyo owes him some money.

I’m hesitant to say this, but I would love to see us look at other tire options. Per James Clay’s suggestion, I ran Nitto’s tire for the enduro this past Friday and loved the way the car handled on them. The cost of a set of Nitto’s is significantly less than Toyo 888’s. I don’t have a clue how well they hold up and heat cycle over time, but I would love to see some testing done to answer that question. If the Nitto is a less expensive tire, shouldn’t we consider it?[/quote]


#23

Bruce, One could argue that the rules were not clear. Many of us sold our used RA 1’s for pennies on the dollar because we knew we couldn’t use them up before the rule change. Now I learn that I could have gotten the goodie out of them without giving them away. The southeast drivers agreed to set the rules aside so that we could use up our RA1’s, but in reality who gave us the authority to do that? If I’ve heard it once, I’ve heard it a thousand times, this series is about saving money and racing on a budget.

If Nitto’s are cheaper and perform as well, I think we should test them and consider using them.


#24

Answer is? No. This is what we use to communicate with each other. There is no official place for us to express our views and for the Regional Directors to communicate with us. Have we been using this forum for this purpose? Yes but it makes it difficult for both racers and Directors to communicate with each other. Here is how I envision how the forums would work:
[ul]
[li] Official forum for rules would be closed until Regional Directors needed to communicate. There could be a feedback forum or email for general comments, concerns, etc. This is at the Regional Director’s discretion and allows the Regional Director to not have to read every thread on this board to get opinions/feedback.[/li]
[li] When there is a potential rule change or communication, the Regional Director communicates via the forum and can optionally ask for feedback and set a time frame for feedback (closing the forum after the deadline). [/li]
[li] From there, follow the procedure from the previous post. [/li]
[/ul]

I agree. But if we can give Carter and the Regional Directors a streamlined way to get information from us, they can, in my opinion, better formulate a consensus and counter proposal to some of the decisions made from Nationals.

With all due respect, your statement above is correct. :slight_smile: I am not professing to know everything that goes on, but I was here from the end of season of 2003 until now and have heard the complaints of the racers who have been here through many of SpecE30’s years. You can read this board and get some perspective, but most of the opinions are not expressed in this forum. Most of the racers I have spoken with like to race and do not want to deal with this B.S., IMHO. Should they communicate their views here? Perhaps, but this series was about fun first and foremost. Writing about this stuff is not. For some of these guys, it is no longer been fun for a while.

Just my 20 cents… :slight_smile:

-Steve


#25

Just to add another opinion, I feel transparency is lacking.

If there was transparency, I would be able to answer the question “what rule changes were proposed to NASA for approval?” Instead, Carter posted vague details about sending some revisions to NASA. If there were specifics, it wasn’t in a thread that I’ve seen. I am unaware of what the proposed changes will be, so I can’t factor them into my plans for the off season. Feels opaque to me.

Maybe I should complain to my regional rep?


#26

Carter outlined a number of areas that we were discussing, and that the rules would be published soon. What would your reaction be if we published the draft, you started working on something, then NASA changed something during their review of the rules and you wasted money/effort?

I’m not saying there isn’t opportunity to improve the process, but we are working on it. You’ll notice we now have a sub-forum to post announcements and clarifications so the important news is in one place.
thanks,
bruce

laz wrote:

[quote]Just to add another opinion, I feel transparency is lacking.

If there was transparency, I would be able to answer the question “what rule changes were proposed to NASA for approval?” Instead, Carter posted vague details about sending some revisions to NASA. If there were specifics, it wasn’t in a thread that I’ve seen. I am unaware of what the proposed changes will be, so I can’t factor them into my plans for the off season. Feels opaque to me.

Maybe I should complain to my regional rep?[/quote]


#27

leggwork wrote:

[quote]Carter outlined a number of areas that we were discussing, and that the rules would be published soon. What would your reaction be if we published the draft, you started working on something, then NASA changed something during their review of the rules and you wasted money/effort?
[/quote]

If it is draft, it is just that… a draft. It is the same thing I say when I write draft documents at work: This information is subject to change. :slight_smile:

Bruce,

I appreciate the work that the Regional Directors are doing to improve the series. I realize it is not easy placating a bunch of egotistical racers. :slight_smile: I want the process to be improved so we can get back to racing. If my posts are anything but constructive towards that goal, please do not hesitate to call me out (I am sure you are saying “I didn’t need permission for that” :slight_smile: ).

-Steve


#28

yeah, but, people have a habit of dwelling on what might have been…
continuing your work analogy - when I develop the product plans for my product line (an intraoperative MRI scanner), I discuss them with a few key surgeons, but I don’t reveal the plans to all of our users or prospects (or even our sales force) until the plans are approved by senior management.
thanks
bruce

stevekappy wrote:

[quote]leggwork wrote:

[quote]Carter outlined a number of areas that we were discussing, and that the rules would be published soon. What would your reaction be if we published the draft, you started working on something, then NASA changed something during their review of the rules and you wasted money/effort?
[/quote]

If it is draft, it is just that… a draft. It is the same thing I say when I write draft documents at work: This information is subject to change. :slight_smile:

-Steve[/quote]


#29

All:

Those who know Steve Kappy know that he is a standup guy and that his comments are certainly offered to help improve Spec E30.

Bottom line - here’s how the R888 situation happened. And the Regional Directors were not a formal part of the process at that time.

NASA and Toyo approached me, to tell me that Spec E30 had been chosen to be one of the few series to go to the R888. I won’t say that they told me to switch, and I won’t even say they pressured me. But, Toyo assured me that the R888 would have the same compound as the successful RA-1 and that the sidewalls would be a little stiffer, requiring less negative camber. That would be a good thing for us, as we can’t get radical amounts of neg. camber. Plus, they told me the testing had been done, after I had asked in a couple of emails if I could race on the R888 for no points at the Mid Atlantic weekends (because Spec E30 used RA-1’s), and do the testing. Not needed they said.

They originally wanted to require the R888 for the beginning of the '08 season but after talking with a few racers, to get other’s opinions, I suggested (with help from others) that we announce it early and then require it in June. NASA and Toyo agreed to this. Everything seemed to be fine. We were working together on a plan and the RA-1 was going to be discontinued anyway. And we were all happy with the RA-1 so why wouldn’t we all be happy with the R888?

Plus, our drivers could use up their existing RA-1’s in six months of racing season, use any existing tires for practice after that, and sell their wets (I didn’t sell mine for pennies on the dollar; I got almost half price for them) and the switch would be very easy, considering the tires would be practically the same.

Well, we now know they are not the same and that was a problem. While I have seen better wear and performance from my second and third sets of R888’s, I still like the RA-1 better, as do many (if not all) of our drivers I’m sure. My point is, NASA, Toyo, and I worked together, with some input from some of our drivers, on this issue. And to clear up any misunderstandings, it wasn’t mandated exclusively by NASA, or mandated exclusively by me, or decided on a whim. We all looked at the options, discussed it for some time, and made the decision together.

Now, the Regional Directors are a huge part of the formal process. And everyone should know that I will never send a Rule change to NASA, without an agreement among the Regional Directors. Never, ever.

As we continue to grow (over 105 built cars and many more in the works, according to the comments I get from new members on this board - I send a personal email to every person who signs-up and I ask about their plans), the Spec E30 Administration will continue to evolve. We want more input from the racers, but we have to go slowly. For sure, and as it’s been written here before, if every Rule change is posted for comment, it will take years to get through that process. It took a few weeks to get through the few changes we did make, and that was just with the Regional Directors and me. And some were just wording changes.

Also, after we receive NASA’s approval (hopefully very soon) on the recent changes, the Regional Directors and I will discuss our justification of each Rule change/modification. After we agree on that wording, I will post it on the new Rules subforum. I can guarantee that every driver will not like every single part of it but we Regional Directors think it’s a good package that will make the racing better for everyone. And again, there are no radical or costly changes.

The Regional Directors did not always agree on every part of every rule. But we all worked together and came to an agreement on the package.

Getting back to the tire issue…I have never received a free tire from Toyo (excluding earned Toyo Bucks) so don’t think that I’m in bed with Toyo. But yes, Toyo is a big supporter of NASA and we tend to be “team players” with the NASA/Toyo program.

But we also do not have any contract with Toyo and if looking at other brands is good for Spec E30 drivers, we will do that. And any change will be a long process that includes direct testing by several Spec E30 drivers, input from our drivers all over the country, and plenty of time for our drivers to feel comfortable.

Yes, I was shocked to see NASA’s recent tire announcement. They originally planned to have all series that use Toyo tires, on the R888 by January 2009 but evidently something happened. Maybe the other racers heard about our experiences and made a big stink, or Toyo has more RA-1’s in the warehouse, or something else.

Regardless, if our drivers want to stick to our program of using the R888 for all our races, that’s fine with Spec E30. If our racers want the Regional Directors and me to draft a formal letter to NASA, we can do that very quickly. Tell us what you are thinking.

I have asked NASA how this will affect Spec E30 but if we get good, constructive, and well thought-out opinions, we will send those to NASA. And you can send your opinions directly to the NASA Competition Manager.

Right now, we feel that the Representative Democracy is working well. Yes, it will take some time to get used to it and to use it to its potential.

Of the hundreds of members here, only a small percentage of those hundreds, post their opinions. We want to hear more of your opinions and while some may be reluctant to post on an open forum, please feel free to send a personal email to your Regional Director or to me.

We don’t want to make a decision like how we proceed with the tire issue, without some good input from the drivers. The best place to post Rules questions/comments is in the Rules section.

Each Regional Director will periodically check the Rules section. When we see a question that is simple, any of the Regional Directors know that they can post the answer. If the answer is more complicated, the Regional Directors will discuss it and come to an agreement. All answers will be posted on the Regional Director’s Rules subforum.

So, from this point, let’s hear from more of you on this latest NASA/Toyo announcement, and let’s do it on the Rules forums.

We want to do what is best for you, the racers, so tell us what you’re thinking.

NASA is good about listening to our concerns so once we hear from you, we will pass those concerns to NASA.

Carter Hunt
Spec E30 National Series Director


#30

I’m not interested in looking at any other tire unless it has the same contingency as Toyo including Nationals. I used to budget $5000 a year for tires when I raced with the BMW Club and there was no contingency from Hoosier at the time. I’m not sure if you guys realise how good we have it. If you put a gun to my head I would still pick the RA1 but I don’t hate the R888. The only RA1’s I sold were my rains and I got good money for them as they were essentially brand new.


#31

The compound of the 888’s could not have been the same…unless the construction caused a problem with heat build up/retention. The first set I had turned to crap after 4 cycles, I think because I ran too much pressure…we got zero info other than “basically the same as the Ra1 with stiffer sidewall”. So I fried up my tires, and as I have said many times before TOYO has screwed me around all year on contengency.

I would love to change brands…BUT, Simon is right. Plus if folks think there was a bunch of mess about the spec exhast, just imagine trying to change spec tires now, how would you phase them in? Forget about changing tires. The SE guys can run the wonderful enduro series and run whatever tire you like in E2, which is part of what I plan to do next year. I do not plan on buying any TOYO’s in 09. If they come thru on the TOYO bucks I am due then I will run some Spec e30, otherwise E2 enduro for me.

Maybe a change to one of the TOYO STS tires for longer wear, but really I dont see how it can work.

Al
going back to dumpster diving for tires
need some red circle’s with the slash to go over my TOYO stickers.
See: http://www.billgau.com/odyssey/racecar.html


#32

Im not convinced that nasa national would continue to sanction SE30 if we went away from toyo. I’ve always heard that all nasa series using spec tires must be on toyos (as they are now). It may be political BS, but you have to deal with this kind of thing under any national sanctioning body. Right now I think there hasn’t been too much of this but my opinion on this will change if they do switch us back to RA1s again.

As much as I dislike the R888 compared to the RA1, it is still a very good tire with a good balance of life/grip compared to what I’ve picked up about the other tires out there. The most important thing is that we are all on the same thing, and that the thing we’re on is affordable, which I think is the case now.

The contingecy is not great, but it is very, very good. I got a free set of tires this year just by consistent 4th and 5th place finishes. A few front runners never paid for tires all season. Toyo never commited to paying contingency for enduros. I also found this out the hard way, but I have never been mislead by them. This is just my experience.

  • just my .02 (probably very contraversial and offensive) :stuck_out_tongue:

#33

No other tire company will pony up the $'s as TOYO has, I dont deny that, but that is no excuse for their customer service and now, I guess throwing their weight around with NASA. R. Allen actually directed me to the “Non Spec Tire COntengency” where if there were over 15 class starters, TOYO would pay. 15 class starters in an enduro is tough, but it has happened in the SE…

Al


#34

allenr wrote:

I don’t know ANY of the details, but I heard this weekend that Spec Miata was moving to a Hoosier tire for next year. I’m not saying we should change tires, but it sounds like it is at least possible.

For the record, I thought the R888s worked a LOT better this past weekend. I’m assuming the 40-50 degree temps made all the difference (compared to 90+ the last time at Rd Atl).


#35

shifter11 wrote:

Spec Miata will be on Toyos in both SCCA and NASA for 2009.

I personally don’t care what tire we run in Spec E30 as long as everyone is the same. But if we were to switch from R888s now we would lose whatever ‘development’ has occurred in the last 6 months or so (optimal tire pressures, camber settings, shave depth, best initial heat cycling for stability, etc.).

When I switched from Hoosiers to Toyos a couple years ago, I kept closer track of how long the Toyos lasted. After getting faster for a couple years, I wore out the RA1s faster. But I still remembered how long they lasted when I first started using them. I wonder if the same is happening now with people taking a close look at 888 longevity.

I still think you can get a bunch of weekends out of a set at most tracks if you start with a good shave and are diligent about flipping them on the rims and rotating them around.

I am really looking forward to trying to figure out these tires in a full, hot Southeast race season. The folks who can figure out how not to overdrive the triple eights will see themselves storming to the front in the late stages of the races. I think. :slight_smile:

Steve D.


#36

I say we shy away from toyo and move to either falken’s or nitto’s. Both have a street tire for under $100 that will yield similar lap times to the R888’s. I think the 888’s suck and toyo knows it. A cheeper tire would make it easier on everyone’s wallet. If I can run falken azenis rt615’s for $68 a piece I could care less if we have a contingency or not.

my 2 cents


#37

Yep but that was in response to someone saying that toyo only pays for spec classes. I was hopeful that it would apply to the enduros too, but not sure about it. In august, I finished 2nd out of 19 in class in a 90 min enduro, filled out the ‘non-spec’ form, and sent it in. I was not optimistic. I found out at the next event (after not receiving a return letter) that toyo only pays out for “regional points races” with the exception of separate programs for nationals. Technically, enduros are points races and they are regional, but I didnt feel like having a lawsuit over it :S. I think nasa needs to get contingency sponsors to take enduros seriously.

I think the even bigger issue is ‘performance longevity’, not ‘physical longevity’. RA1s were grippy until they corded but 888s stick like wooden carriage wheels after about the third day.


#38

Steve D wrote:

[quote]shifter11 wrote:

Spec Miata will be on Toyos in both SCCA and NASA for 2009.

[/quote]

Sorry, that must have been for regional competition only! Like I said… I didn’t have details (I’m just trying to fuel the fire)!