Poopie Board for 2011

#1

Discuss…

A public way to keep up with reckless driving?
Will it curtail some of the goober things that a re happening in the larger fields that we are now having.?
Better yet. will it foster a better understanding/less animosity among racers?

RP

#2

My idea was a take home award that returns each month. The weakness of that idea is that the award will often not come back the next month for whatever reason.

JimP’s idea is a full size cardboard figure that he can store in the NASA truck. That works for me, as long as it doesn’t get all beat up in the trailer. It’d be a pita to be constantly replacing the thing because it gets beat up and won’t stand upright on it’s own. But since it’s Jim’s idea, I figure that he has a plan for storing it such that it survives.

I think that it will modify behavior because it will keep the issue on the skyline a bit more. Another charm of the idea is that it will just plain be fun, despite the undercurrent of seriousness. The same way that the 6th place award was fun.

Re. Better understanding. Probably not.

Re. Less animosity. If the idea helps moderate behavior, then it will reduce animosity.

I think that serious damage occurs primarily in two scenarios…The first is the dive bomb pass in the braking zone, and the 2nd is when someone starts going off and instead of just going off in a controlled manner they fight too hard to save it and the car comes back on to the track out of control. I don’t recall much history with us punting each other, so I left that out.

I think that as much as we snicker and guffaw each Sat night re. the monthly award of the ceremonial ass-hat with our picture prominantly affixed to it, we’ll all want to avoid the honor. And that might factor into the decision making process when we’re making split second decisions in the heat of battle.

#3

Scott typed:
Re. Better understanding. Probably not.

You’re correct. It is impossible to understand stupidity.
Perhaps I shouldn’t be so blunt with the word stupidity, but we’re not playing NASA-sanctioned tiddly-winks.

RP

#4

a lot of it comes down to respect for the safety and property of our fellow racers. none of us are being paid to race, in fact it’s just the opposite. there are no multi-million dollar contracts to be won, no huge sponsorship deals riding on the results. sure we want to have fun beyond the HPDE environment, and that means good hard racing - to a point.

safety is pretty obvious - as far as i know the spec e30 crowd has been very lucky and avoided serious injury for the past few years, despite some nasty looking crashes. imagine how you’d feel if a bonehead move put someone in the hospital or resulted in permanent physical impairment. and for what, a few toyo bucks? a mug? bragging rights?

as for property, for some fortunate individuals the cost of racing is something they are able to handle without great difficulty. but for more than a few of us racing consumes a substantial chunk of our discretionary budgets, and that’s without lunching a transmission or blowing a motor. remember that damaging someone else’s vehicle may not only take them out of the race but possibly the next race too, and maybe the entire season. given the comraderie we all feel for one another and how much fun large fields are that’s not something that any of us want to see (well, i wouldn’t mind seeing johan take a break).

i’m not naive enough to think that we can prevent all accidents from happening, that’s an integral part of racing and always will be. but that doesn’t mean that we can’t all take an active role in keeping the sport we love as safe and fun as possible for everyone involved.

#5

Ranger wrote:

I would neither snicker nor guffaw. I am 100% committed to calling out reckless driving. I am vehemently opposed to making light of it in any way.

Christ! We race balls out for a $5 trophy. If there is a chuckle attached to the asshat award, asshats will feel a little less like asshats. We made light of mediocrity with the 6th place trophy. Let’s not do it with this.

Any body contact gets you an asshat sticker on the back window and your name on the asshat board on the side of the NASA hauler. It stays there for 2 years.

If it weren’t for the expense, I would love to require everyone to run front and back video. Just ask the 944 who nailed me and Jones. It can clear up a lot of confusion. (PS - The 944 driver un-asshatted himself by paying to fix my car. THAT would change behavior if put into practice.)

#6

Patton wrote:

[quote]Scott typed:
Re. Better understanding. Probably not.

You’re correct. It is impossible to understand stupidity.
Perhaps I shouldn’t be so blunt with the word stupidity, but we’re not playing NASA-sanctioned tiddly-winks.
[/quote]
It’s easy to remember a few incidents where, were it not for the grace of god, I’d smashed right into someone. The fact that I’ve not been in anything really serious is only about half due to my general caution. The other half is just luck. I’ve spun on the track and was lucky that no one smacked me. I’ve been lucky and guessed right when folks have lost it in front of me. I’ve tried to make a pass on the inside and just F***KING BARELY got the goddamned car stopped in time.

So although I’m concerned about the amount of contact in CMP’s first sprint, I’m wary that I steer clear of any tone of morale superiority (recall I had 2 contacts in that sprint). Because if I do, I’ll just end up looking like an asshole when I over cook a turn and tbone Chuck Taylor’s car just as soon as he repaints it.

#7

Steve D wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

I would neither snicker nor guffaw. I am 100% committed to calling out reckless driving. I am vehemently opposed to making light of it in any way.

Christ! We race balls out for a $5 trophy. If there is a chuckle attached to the asshat award, asshats will feel a little less like asshats. We made light of mediocrity with the 6th place trophy. Let’s not do it with this.

Any body contact gets you an asshat sticker on the back window and your name on the asshat board on the side of the NASA hauler. It stays there for 2 years.

If it weren’t for the expense, I would love to require everyone to run front and back video. Just ask the 944 who nailed me and Jones. It can clear up a lot of confusion. (PS - The 944 driver un-asshatted himself by paying to fix my car. THAT would change behavior if put into practice.)[/quote]

I hear ya. I’ve said my piece on the issue. I’m just one vote. Once we get some more ideas on how to do this from folks, we can set up a poll and see what the more popular ideas are.

#8

I like the idea of public humiliation. Standing in front of everyone at the drivers meeting with Checkers, while funny, did make me more aware of paying attention to checkered flags.

But ultimately I think we’re all being a little hard on ourselves and our fellow racers here. We had a 32 car field, with some very competitive folks out there. Did I enjoy being taken out? No. Is it part of racing? Yes. I don’t think the silver bullet some folks want to achieve is possible unfortunately. GOOD racing is close racing, and close racing leads to occasional incidents. I’d take a little body damage after a good hard race over BMWCCA’s gentle racing any day.

#9

Scott said:

I hear ya. I’ve said my piece on the issue. I’m just one vote. Once we get some more ideas on how to do this from folks, we can set up a poll and see what the more popular ideas are.[/quote]

We do this every year…Careful on any polls that you conduct. Experience has shown that they were/are useless.

The guiding document is the NASA CCRs. Work within that framework and noone can object to the the poopie board or whatever means we use/have of keeping score.

By the way, I’ve got to look at the CCRs. Do points reset at the start of a new year, or reset/drop off like points on your drivers license?
Are points only tallied when there is an report turned into race control?

Heck, at CMP I was hit 3 times and hit another once. All were of the “consentual contact” type. But for the rest of the year…oops there was that bump with Jones and Al Tayor at Charlotte. that brings my total to 6…but there is no body damage from all of the aforementioned.

Wow, give me six and hope the clock resets 1/1/11?
Or give me zero 'cause none of 'em were turned-in?
Oops…forgot to mention the bump-drafts at RA…

Do I qualify in your book of racers to watch as reckless?
Gotta know who you are racing with…

RP

#10

In short, Jim explained the system to me this way:
Body contact forms are to be filled out so that the officials have something more than "your friends say you play to rough"
to go on, should they need to talk to or eject a driver. They build a case against someone with a paper trail of real evidence instead of heresay or grumbling from a few.

I think the system as it exists works just fine for dealing with real problems, so the idea of a “kinda funny/really don’t want to be called out on it” award etc wouldnt necessarily be making light of the issue. Nobody really wants to be called out for anything in the meetings,even as jovial as Jim is, you’d still feel like a dumbass and the point would be taken.

Knowing who you are racing with can go a long way as far as whats really necessary to report as contact or how close you should race with them. Ranger and Evan are absolutely right, with good close racing, sometimes crap just happens. Some people are more worried about it than others. I agree with Evan and will take a little body damage for the fun of a close race. Not that I enjoy it or have extra cash to throw at it, but believe its going to happen at some point or another so I dont get up in arms about it or bitch to anyone else about it. I have had the s**t knocked out of me on several occasions which caused major damage to my car and once had to buy a rather expensive Barber gaurd rail on top of it. In all occasions the heartfelt apology from my competitor was enough because I knew it was unintentional. Kudos to the 944 driver, that was absolutely stand up. I’d like to think any of the rest of us would do the same.

#11

I’m scheming to make this work. Jim and Chuck have not formally greenlighted it, but I’ll bring something to CMP. If we’re going to do this, it has to be a community thing. It’s not going to get anywhere if it’s just another gag of mine.

#12

Patton wrote:

[quote]Discuss…

A public way to keep up with reckless driving?
Will it curtail some of the goober things that a re happening in the larger fields that we are now having.?
Better yet. will it foster a better understanding/less animosity among racers?

RP[/quote]

Robert, How about limiting field size via qualifying…top 25 cars race. I’m with Steve on calling people out for reckless driving. The first race I raced with Johan made me realize his style of driving was reckless and I told him so at the conclusion of his first spec e30 race. How many wrecks did Jones have last year? The last time I saw his car, it didn’t have a straight panel on it. If the rules for damage were enforced, wouldn’t that correct this problem? Reckless driving has kept me away from sprint races last year and is likely to keep me away from sprint races for years to come. It cost too much to build a nice car only to have somebody take it out for you in the first lap of the race. I’ve become very comfortable in my 6 hour Friday DE’s also known as enduro’s. You know what I find particularly interesting? Mike Skeen won nearly every race he was in, but not one time did I ever witness him driving recklessly. You don’t have to take chances or be reckless to win races. Skeen had style.

#13

[quote]Gasman wrote:
Robert, How about limiting field size via qualifying…top 25 cars race.

[/quote]

Steve,

Are you kidding me?

What about rookies? They need a (safe) place to race.

Plus there is no way that I would consider paying hundreds of $$ to show up to the track only to find out that I was not be able to race just cause I am slow relative to that particular field. I may be slow but I am safe.

And one correction … Skeen HAS style.

Don

#14

Correction duly noted my friend. I used past tense only because he no longer graces or shares the track with the likes of us.

#15

The way to avoid people getting it in their heads that rubbing is racing is to set the standard early and reinforce it regularly. The best way is to create a community around the class that promotes a “we’re all friends” approach to driving.

However, putting your name on the wall of shame might do the same trick. However, negative reinforcement isn’t going to get you very far in the long run.

#16

[quote]We do this every year…Careful on any polls that you conduct. Experience has shown that they were/are useless.

The guiding document is the NASA CCRs. Work within that framework and noone can object to the the poopie board or whatever means we use/have of keeping score.

By the way, I’ve got to look at the CCRs. Do points reset at the start of a new year, or reset/drop off like points on your drivers license?
Are points only tallied when there is an report turned into race control?

Heck, at CMP I was hit 3 times and hit another once. All were of the “consentual contact” type. But for the rest of the year…oops there was that bump with Jones and Al Tayor at Charlotte. that brings my total to 6…but there is no body damage from all of the aforementioned.

Wow, give me six and hope the clock resets 1/1/11?
Or give me zero 'cause none of 'em were turned-in?
Oops…forgot to mention the bump-drafts at RA…

Do I qualify in your book of racers to watch as reckless?
Gotta know who you are racing with…

RP[/quote]

Robert, I think the occasional rub/bump that leaves only a little paint transfer is to be expected. I was involved in 3 minor rub/bumps at CMP during the Saturday sprint race. They were all the result of someone else trying to occupy space I was already occupying. They in no way ruined my race or my willingness to race close with those drivers. Those things are going to happen in w2w racing. I still think all contact should be avoided but if the occasional rub gets someone all up in arms there is a place in TT for them.

I think this discussion is more focused on the bigger incidents that end someones race, weekend, or year!! For those incidents I think a dunce cap is well deserved.

We need to remind ourselves that there is a whole section in the CCR about passing/position rules. I’ll usually look through that section a couple days before every race weekend. That gives me a little guy on my shoulder telling me “can’t get them here” as opposed to the guy on the other shoulder screaming “bonsai”. Also reminding myself that no matter how good I think I am on the brakes I will never make a corner braking at the 50 yd. marker!!

As Jim has said many times “If you want a $10 trophy just ask me for it”

Greg

#17

Gasman wrote:

[quote]Patton wrote:

[quote]Discuss…

A public way to keep up with reckless driving?
Will it curtail some of the goober things that a re happening in the larger fields that we are now having.?
Better yet. will it foster a better understanding/less animosity among racers?

RP[/quote]

Robert, How about limiting field size via qualifying…top 25 cars race. I’m with Steve on calling people out for reckless driving. The first race I raced with Johan made me realize his style of driving was reckless and I told him so at the conclusion of his first spec e30 race. How many wrecks did Jones have last year? The last time I saw his car, it didn’t have a straight panel on it. If the rules for damage were enforced, wouldn’t that correct this problem? Reckless driving has kept me away from sprint races last year and is likely to keep me away from sprint races for years to come. It cost too much to build a nice car only to have somebody take it out for you in the first lap of the race. I’ve become very comfortable in my 6 hour Friday DE’s also known as enduro’s. You know what I find particularly interesting? Mike Skeen won nearly every race he was in, but not one time did I ever witness him driving recklessly. You don’t have to take chances or be reckless to win races. Skeen had style.[/quote]

With all due respect:

Waaaaaaaahhhhhh!

Here goes Gasman, crying like a little B!tch again. Familiar territory for you in a land where you arent the boss man isnt it? I dont recall seeing you at any sprint races last year. Maybe you should just take your ball and go home, oh wait, you’ve already done that. Top 25 race? ridiculous. Just stick to DE’s where you are nice and safe with your pretty car.

Your friend.
Jones

#18

It is unfortunate there is no “ignore” feature on this board

#19

How did DeVinney escape this conversation? That guy is a hazard to himself.

He’d be a hazard to others if he drove faster.

At least that is what my foggy memory of my racing days tells me.

With all due respect…

BTW - how does SCCA handle this? They’re the big time organization from what I hear on the interwebs.

#20

Gasman

Thanks for stiring the pot, Have Jones or Johan had even 1 contact report last year?? I didn’t make every race last year but I don’t remember hearing anything…

Why are you calling them out? I would expect them to take it kind of personally.

Al