Penalties for rough driving

#21

Man, txs for the answer… I sure see why you are the "President" of the club… I’ll lhave to read the rules in company of a brewsky! Does anyone have the number 69 on their car? that’s my favorite number, and I wanna make sure when I get it out there Im the only 69. … Also, If I am in FL, can I still race with your group?

#22

once you have a car ready to go to comp school, email me to request that number be reserved. the reservation will be valid in the mid atlantic region only. we do not have a series reserved number system.
mid atlantic does not head to fl but i think SE region may…Robert will know

Post edited by: nasaregistrar, at: 2006/07/14 06:23

#23

I have been out of the loop for a while. Just watched the video from Summit.

Since when do we do standing starts? I am guessing this was for Hyperfest only. I thought NASA-VA learned a long time ago that standing starts were not the way to go…

**Disclaimer I have no background on the this incident or recent events other than this thread. What you are about to read is my opinion and only my opinion, not those of this site or Spec E30 leadership, NASA, or anyone else

#1) The car getting passed turned into the car doing the passing, I hope he is the one that got the penalty. In fact the incident occured well after he was passed

#2) this type of contact seems relatively minor to me, other than the fact it looks deliberate (which I don’t get)

#3) was this or any other video footage used to disposition the verdict of the penalty?

I have to admit that I am NOT in favor of running under 13/13 rules for spec E30, but indeed I will race by them. I do think it breeds woosie drivers, and takes away from the credibilty of the race series. Punishing people for bonehead moves or avoidable contact in any series is necessary, but punishing harshly for light contact seems like overkill. I gues the hard part is where to draw the line, so yeah maybe it is easier to make it more black-and-white.

You could say who cares for an amatuer series… but, I for one want to go head to head with other guys that are at the top of their game and will give up nothing for me to beat them. Seems to me that slight contact as a result of a heated race (a rubbed fender, a donut on the door, etc.) is (In my opinion), just part of hard racing. In other words, IMO 13/13 breeds excuses and whining. But yeah, I don’t want some backmarker banging into me just for the Hell of it either.

On the other hand, it probably keeps the guys that are normally on a even keel from going over the deep end or beyond their limits. There is fine line between hard racing and bonehead moves, and obviously not everyone on the racetrack will show the same amount of control over their car, ability, or temper.

Plus, sometimes I pull off the hero-like manuvuers that just look boneheaded to people not in the know. :whistle:

Now, I am off to re-read the competition rules.

And yes, I have been hit by a "race incident" on my old e36 car, and it was not fun or cheap, but that is what you sign up for the minute the green flag falls.

**Disclaimer I have no background on the this incident or recent events other than this thread. What you are about to read is my opinion and only my opinion, not those of this site or Spec E30 leadership, NASA, or anyone else

Post edited by: mmyers, at: 2006/07/14 12:19

#24

[quote]#2) this type of contact seems relatively minor to me, other than the fact it looks deliberate (which I don’t get)
[/quote]

By minor, I guess your saying $500.00+ is a "minor" amout to spend at a body shop to get typical sheet metal damage fixed and re-painted?

I’d rather see clean racing by everyone, and spend my $$ on new tires and registration fees…

I respectfully disagree with that assertion…Any hack driver can bounce of someone’s car or push by in a corner…It takes skill and car control to run race after race, drive competitively at 9/10th’s or 10/10th’s and keep the racing clean. Newbies looking for a series to run with will not be attracted to one that condones avoidable damage…even "minor" damage.

If the assumption is that even light contact is the result of a driver being "out of control" then the only difference between ‘minor damage’ and a ‘Major Incident’ is LUCK. Racing is a dangerous business…post race sanctions send a message to all and give clear guidance that Safety is paramount. Penalties are a nessesary evil. No one likes to see a racing buddy get put on "probation" or miss a weekend but I’d rather see that, than a car going into a wall at 100+ mph because someone made a bad racing decision.

NASA and the series directors in the Autobahn group are doing an great job making it clear to all the competitors what the reasonable expectations are for on track conduct and car control. If guys want to run a "more agressive" series, with higher incidences of car-to-car contact, then the SCCA is probably the place to go.

#25

mmyers wrote:

Almost every Autobahn race features a split start – the faster cars (SpecE30 & GTS) have a standing start and the slower cars (944s) have a rolling start. Shenandoah is the exception due to the short S/F straight.

mmyers wrote:

This is club racing – you’ve paid $200+ in fees (not to mention tires, gas, pads, etc) to race for what amounts to a $15 trophy – re-arranging someone’s bodywork is not in the cards for this kind of event. It’s expensive and worse yet, it’s unnecessarily dangerous. I learned the hard way that even "minor" contact can result in a life-threatening incident (thankfully, no one was hurt, but that’s not always going to be the case).

If you think that trading paint is okay, I’d suggest you pick up a legends car and run races at a county dirt track, or roll with SCCA. (And get a HANS device.)

mmyers wrote:

I would assume that Carter talked to the corner workers, the drivers involved and any drivers who were nearby when the incidents occurred.

mmyers wrote:

[quote]I have to admit that I am NOT in favor of running under 13/13 rules for spec E30, but indeed I will race by them. I do think it breeds woosie drivers, and takes away from the credibilty of the race series.
[/quote]
And I think that stringent contact rules breed racers who can control their cars at speed. If you can’t confidently control your car to the degree that you can predict where you’re going to end up, you should spend (at least) a few more weekends in HPDEs.

mmyers wrote:

What I like about NASA-MA and SpecE30 in particular is that there is very little ambiguity and that the rules are applied consistently. (This is especially apparent after watching the way that 944-cup and most SCCA series are administered.)[/quote]

mmyers wrote:

Some of the best, tightest production-based tin-top racing I’ve ever witnessed has been SpecE30 – Carter, Cobetto, Alex and Carlton running door-to-door, bumper-to-bumper, lap-after-lap through the field last September at Summit Point. There was no contact, despite going through turns with less than 4 inches between the cars. (Their mirrors were inside each other from time to time.)

Post edited by: sharkd, at: 2006/07/15 13:47

#26

One of the reasons, not the only reason, that I am not racing was the hit I took from someone trying to save a spin in the rain that was way too far gone.

The driver "caught it" and snap spun back into me. Had it been "both feet in" (as is drilled into your head EVERYWHERE!!) NO contact would have occured and we both would have finished a weekend. As it was I bought a rear trailing arm, wheel, rear subframe, etc etc etc.

It was a bonehead move on his part and cost me more than I was willing to spend on a regular basis. I am sure it cost him much more.

No penalty system was in place at that time and none were given.

I will be back to racing one day…strong enforcement of clean racing will weigh heavily on my decision as to where to race. Carter…keep it up and I will be back once the kids are grown and I can devote the proper time and attention to racing. Let it devolve into spec miata, IT, etc and I won’t be back.

I think carter is on the right track and wish we had a similar system in place when I was tagged.

#27

As someone who is hoping to look at a donor candidate this weekend, I can tell you that one of the many reasons I chose NASA and SpecE30 over SCCA is that I don’t want to have to build a new shell every year because some egomaniac punted me off the track to win a piece of wood with his name on it. I want, and expect, very close racing. I tire donut mark or a busted taillamp aren’t going to bother me. Visiting the frame shop to fix collapsed panels is another thing entirely. I understand and accept that stuff happens. But I’ve also seen that chaos that is other forms of racing, and that has curbed my ambition to make the leap from Solo 1 to wheel-2-wheel.
I can live by the 13/13 rule just fine. If someone else can’t, there are plenty of other sandboxes to play in.

#28

I’ve been away for a few days and want to comment on a few items that stood out as I read these posts.

  1. NASA Regions have the authority to have standing starts or rolling starts. Personally, I enjoy standing starts (although a few Spec E30 drivers are clearly better at them than am I) and rolling starts.
  2. The penalties issued at Summit Point were relatively minor. Basically, both drivers lost their points for that one race, and that was about it. Both kept their finishing positions and got credit for the race. And penalties are usually issued when body damage is the result. After the race, and upon discovering the damage, I looked (several times) at the car that got hit and spoke (several times) to that driver. I will make a point to talk more to all the drivers involved.
  3. If two cars rub bumpers and there is no damage, there most-probably won’t be any official penalty. If a car rubs bumpers and a turn signal light gets broken, there might be a very minor penalty - something like the driver losing one spot on the starting grid at the next race. If body damage occurs, there will be significant penalties, mostly based on the severity of the damage.
  4. We cannot let the drivers decide if a penalty is issued ("He wasn’t mad that I hit him"), mainly for one reason. If I am clearly at-fault and hit a friend’s car, he might give me a "pass" on the penalty. Then, as we go along, others will see this and will start to expect a "pass" when they cause damage, and so on, and so on. If a driver puts his foot down and expects a penalty, other drivers will think that he’s being a jerk for insisting on the penalty, which breeds hatred among the drivers. If all penalties are issued by the series leaders, the drivers will get along with each other better.
  5. Mel and I have raced together and after a hard-fought and clean race, he won by a few feet. I appreciate his post and want everyone to feel free to post about any topic.
  6. The posted video had no influence on the issuance of the penalties. The investigation had begun just after the race. And I don’t think the contact at turn one was deliberate…but drivers will be penalized regardless of whether the body damage was deliberate or accidental.
  7. I know that the modified 13/13 Rule is in effect in the Autobahn Group at NASA Mid Atlantic races. I can’t remember if it’s in effect at NASA Southeast races but will get with Spec E30 Southeast Director David Cullen to clarify. I’ll be racing with NASA Southeast at Road Atlanta in Aug. and look forward to seeing all the new (and old) Spec E30 cars.
  8. We are working with NASA to include a chassis dyno at the race weekends, to evaluate the cars. It looks like we will have to add a few dollars to the Spec E30 entries to help cover the cost. And yes, I’m contacting the other Series to try to get them to contribute. However, how much money would you be willing to pay to know the front-runners are legal? I would be willing to pay $20.00 per weekend.
  9. Clearly, we (racers and officials) don’t want to see cars getting banged-up and issuing penalties is not fun for anyone. The penalties at Summit Point were not severe but they did spark a good conversation about the subject. I hold no grudge against anyone and hope we can all continue to enjoy the close, fun, and low cost racing of Spec E30.

Carter

Post edited by: Carter, at: 2006/07/18 21:25

Post edited by: Carter, at: 2006/07/18 21:28

#29

Carter wrote:

[quote]I’ve been away for a few days and want to comment on a few items that stood out as I read these posts.

  1. NASA Regions have the authority to have standing starts or rolling starts. Personally, I enjoy standing starts (although a few Spec E30 drivers are clearly better at them than am I) and rolling starts.
  2. The penalties issued at Summit Point were relatively minor. Basically, both drivers lost their points for that one race, and that was about it. Both kept their finishing positions and got credit for the race. And penalties are usually issued when body damage is the result. After the race, and upon discovering the damage, I looked (several times) at the car that got hit and spoke (several times) to that driver. I will make a point to talk more to all the drivers involved.
  3. If two cars rub bumpers and there is no damage, there most-probably won’t be any official penalty. If a car rubs bumpers and a turn signal light gets broken, there might be a very minor penalty - something like the driver losing one spot on the starting grid at the next race. If body damage occurs, there will be significant penalties, mostly based on the severity of the damage.
  4. We cannot let the drivers decide if a penalty is issued ("He wasn’t mad that I hit him"), mainly for one reason. If I am clearly at-fault and hit a friend’s car, he might give me a "pass" on the penalty. Then, as we go along, others will see this and will start to expect a "pass" when they cause damage, and so on, and so on. If a driver puts his foot down and expects a penalty, other drivers will think that he’s being a jerk for insisting on the penalty, which breeds hatred among the drivers. If all penalties are issued by the series leaders, the drivers will get along with each other better.
  5. Mel and I have raced together and after a hard-fought and clean race, he won by a few feet. I appreciate his post and want everyone to feel free to post about any topic.
  6. The posted video had no influence on the issuance of the penalties. The investigation had begun just after the race. And I don’t think the contact at turn one was deliberate…but drivers will be penalized regardless of whether the body damage was deliberate or accidental.
  7. I know that the modified 13/13 Rule is in effect in the Autobahn Group at NASA Mid Atlantic races. I can’t remember if it’s in effect at NASA Southeast races but will get with Spec E30 Southeast Director David Cullen to clarify. I’ll be racing with NASA Southeast at Road Atlanta in Aug. and look forward to seeing all the new (and old) Spec E30 cars.
  8. We are working with NASA to include a chassis dyno at the race weekends, to evaluate the cars. It looks like we will have to add a few dollars to the Spec E30 entries to help cover the cost. And yes, I’m contacting the other Series to try to get them to contribute. However, how much money would you be willing to pay to know the front-runners are legal? I would be willing to pay $20.00 per weekend.
  9. Clearly, we (racers and officials) don’t want to see cars getting banged-up and issuing penalties is not fun for anyone. The penalties at Summit Point were not severe but they did spark a good conversation about the subject. I hold no grudge against anyone and hope we can all continue to enjoy the close, fun, and low cost racing of Spec E30.

Carter

Post edited by: Carter, at: 2006/07/18 21:25<br><br>Post edited by: Carter, at: 2006/07/18 21:28[/quote]

Well said! I look forward to VIR!

#30

I was just wondering if someone could tell me why I have 0 points for saturday’s race at summit point.

#31

MikeD wrote:

Evidently, it wasn’t handled properly. I’ll make sure it is corrected.

Carter

#32

Carter wrote:

[quote]MikeD wrote:

Evidently, it wasn’t handled properly. I’ll make sure it is corrected.

Carter[/quote]

thanks a bunch carter. I was just confused :blink: