One Quart Over filled = Smoke

#21

Yo! What’s up bitc#es. TeddyM3 is in the house.
I’ll fill yous all in on where I been and what I’ve been up to but 1st I got to weigh in

Gasman wrote:

Gassman. You need to try harder. And in all due respect… You suck at apologies. And your internet skillz remind me of your driving. Not so good. But I kid :laugh: you seem like a swell guy. But I can’t stand it when people come across as knowing more about a subject than they will ever know. You get all bent cuz someone may not see things thru the same warped ass prism you got shoved up your poop-shoot.
I’d like to interrupt this rant topay respects and much love to Frank Zappa for his inspiration. may god rest his soul.
You can’t just flame some dude for sharing his experience and opinion that’s back with measurable data. Just because they guy who works on your car told you somethin different.
Range is a nut-job. No body will argue that. But he’s an active member of the BMW community and know his shit. You, I don’t know you and I feel like one luck SOB. But before you keep complain about someone not knowing what they’r talking about, Check your mirror!! Object may be closer than they appear.

Flame not yet ye be flamed :evil:

Love Always!
TeddyM3

#22

I remember my first beer.

#23

Gasman wrote:

That’s better. Less is less BS. If you can’t say anything nice… I guess say somethin about beer.
Keep it up. you’ll get better with practice (that goes for both on the track and the internets)

#24

OP’s issue about dark smoke when he went slightly over Full never got addressed. Someone want to chime in?

#25

Ranger wrote:

Way to go, Ranger. Get this thing back on track…

I’m no mechanical engineer. or a mastermind under the hood (of a car)…

But it seems to me, if it doesn’t smoke when you take some out, fill it to that point. If you’re seriously concerned something may be wrong and you can’t figure it out, have a pro look at it, or you may want to install an oil pressure gauge and an oil temp and go from there?

Personally… if I understood half of what Ranger Gress is talking about, I’d do it :S

#26

scottmc wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

Way to go, Ranger. Get this thing back on track…
[/quote]
Well, almost.

Peakracer.com wrote:

[quote]drumbeater wrote:

Blue/Gray Smoke. It is oil.

Smokes like a bitch. Then drain a little oil and all is well. I have done it twice.
FYI:oil is 20w50 Full Synthetic[/quote]
You could:
a) try it a third time, then blog about it when the same thing happens (a/k/a the IndyJim method)
b) tear down your engine to figure out why the motor makes blue/gray smoke when you overfill it (a/k/a the Ranger method)
c) call everyone an idiot for not doing what you think they should do (a/k/a the Gasman method) or
d) get a shop to fix it then brag about how well you performed (a/k/a the rallen method)
:laugh: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :blink:

#27

Steve D wrote:

[quote]scottmc wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

Way to go, Ranger. Get this thing back on track…
[/quote]
Well, almost.

Peakracer.com wrote:

[quote]drumbeater wrote:

Blue/Gray Smoke. It is oil.

Smokes like a bitch. Then drain a little oil and all is well. I have done it twice.
FYI:oil is 20w50 Full Synthetic[/quote]
You could:
a) try it a third time, then blog about it when the same thing happens (a/k/a the IndyJim method)
b) tear down your engine to figure out why the motor makes blue/gray smoke when you overfill it (a/k/a the Ranger method)
c) call everyone an idiot for not doing what you think they should do (a/k/a the Gasman method) or
d) get a shop to fix it then brag about how well you performed (a/k/a the rallen method)
:laugh: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :blink:[/quote]

e) stop looking at the blue/gray smoke and just drive it till you’re sure the motors blown up (aka: the scottmc method)

#28

Please…Where have I called anyone an idiot? I’ve simply asked Scott not to overstate an unproven position to overfill a crankcase as if it were absolutely necessary for engine survival. It simply isn’t true.

#29

Gasman wrote:

Oh. Sorry. I guess I mischaracterized what you meant when you said “…full of shit as a Christmas turkey…” I went with a rough translation. My bad.

#30

Gasman, when you spend the time/effort/money that Scott has to understand the inter-workings of the M20 motor…then criticize.

On subject, the only way I can fathom the blue smoke happening is if there are either bad rings or valve seals. Another quart will not cause crank interference but will keep more oil on top of the motor during cornering…hence valve seals. Do a leak down test to determine the ring condition…you could be flooding the bottom of the pistons during LH cornering and bypassing the rings. Other that that I’m afraid you will have to go into the motor.

BTW,show of hands: how many people run a quart over? -ME- Chuck

#31

CW, my point is there is no need to spend time or money, I tend to think the german engineers got it right. The survey for a show of hands for running a quart over will not prove engine survival. The more appropriate question might be, who doesn’t and hasn’t had problems. Put me in that group and yes I did complete an 8 hour enduro.

Guys, I’m not trying to stir the pot, I just don’t want people mislead into thinking the internet urban myth of overfilling your crankcase is necessary.

#32

I run a quart over. I had a smoke problem as well last time I was on the track. Didn’t have a clue where it was coming from because it smoked coming out of left hand turns when I was hard on the gas. Turns out the shop I picked it up from over filled the trans. and it was blowing out onto the exhaust some how. Just my own little story that REALLY pissed me off. Good thing I have a trusty Miata for a backup car. lol

#33

Steve D wrote:

[quote]
a) try it a third time, then blog about it when the same thing happens (a/k/a the IndyJim method)[/quote]

Hey leave me out of this. The IndyJim method is one good test is worth a 1000 expert opinions and hilarity ensues.

As with any ‘expert’ advice on the internet - do your own homework kids, just like in school - copying someone else’s answers just leads to heartbreak and detention unless it is a cute girl probably not worth it.

The fancy stack hasn’t seen any issues with my OP [independent of my driving style discussions], of course I have new rings and a crankscraper not sure its apples to apples.

JP’s car used to fog the paddock like a mosquito DDT machine, didn’t seem to hurt anything except the windshield of anyone behind him.

Another thing to keep in mind we’re talking about $100 M20’s here, not one off bespoke F1 motors.

#34

FWIW: I overfill 3 quarters. Nothing unusual and the motor is strong-ish

#35

I ran for about a year on a 160,000-ish-mile junkyard motor with a crank scraper and never had oil pressure dips running right at the full mark. I don’t use a data trace in Traqmate, but I have a low pressure light that is visible on my videos, so I have what I’d call decent - not great - data.

As I understand it, you have to overfill by a pretty large margin before the crank causes foam to form (which the pump can’t push). I think the reason street-car guys freak out about overfilling is the damage you can do to the cat when burning oil. Does it booger up the O2 sensor?

I still don’t understand how overfilling the oil would cause the motor to burn oil absent another problem.

Until I see low pressure/starvation, I’ll save that extra quart each change.

#36

Steve D wrote:

[quote]I ran for about a year on a 160,000-ish-mile junkyard motor with a crank scraper and never had oil pressure dips running right at the full mark. I don’t use a data trace in Traqmate, but I have a low pressure light that is visible on my videos, so I have what I’d call decent - not great - data.
[/quote]

OEM OP light triggers around 5-7psi. One guy told me that it has a really slow response time tho, so it might not pick up transients. There would need to be some corroboration on this theory before I’d set too much stock in it tho. One guy isn’t much in way of consensus.

Jim Levie has a theory about improving the response time of pressure sensors by making the tiny hole in their base a little bigger. He said that he tested the idea and it worked. If he says it worked, then it did. I’d have to say tho that I’m not sure why it worked. I wouldn’t have thought that it would. But now that I’m thinking about it, let me make some phone calls to some guys with better fluid mechanics backgrounds then me.

#37

I run a -4 line to my OP gauge…pressure mimics RPM. With the small hole in the sender, you are dampening or restricting flow to the sender. If you use the plastic capillary tubing furnished with most mechanical gauges, the readings will lag behind actuality. That is why most experienced racers use the -4 AN line. Hydraulics tells us that the pressure in a pressure vessel is the same at all points…however, that does not take flow into account. For instantaneous readings, you must have flow. Chuck

#38

cwbaader wrote:

I agree. Although, theoretically pressure changes can transfer without flow. But realistically, there is a diaphram in the device (I’m pretty sure) that will be deformed by the higher pressure fluid, so it’s a matter of how long it takes that additional fluid to get thru the aperture. Widening the aperture of OP measuring devices might be worth doing in general. Jim is probably on to something.

Maybe this winter I’ll take off my 16 OP sensors and switches and try this.

#39

Gassy, if anybody thinks they have figured out cause-and-effect between various strategies such as accusump, crank scrapers, heavy oil, light oil, overfill, (have I missed anything) and engine failures, or more optimistically, engine longevity, they are smoking crack.

2009 appears to be the ultimate in YMMV when it comes to strategies and motor failures. There is a school of thought that running a quart high can help prevent failure to pick up oil. I doubt that Hans and Franz were imagining running T3 at Roebling every 90 seconds when they were doing durability testing.

Like Ranger, Baader and others on this thread, I happen to subscribe to it. Others do not. Whatever floats your boat and keeps your motor alive.

It’s all just a bunch of damn popcorn to fill in the months of downtime for SE racers between events, and Ranger’s rant-du jour is part of what makes SpecE30.com as colorful as it is.

#40

So maybe Craig can weld a crack pipe to a Mr. Goodwrench plaque for Ranger and all is good.