NEW RULES

#41

One more in the If it Ain’t broke don’t fix it camp

#42

Ditto what they said.

Jim Robinson
#08

#43

I don’t read the board much so Im late to the party. I’m yet another in the "If it Ain’t broke don’t fix it camp"

#44

I really don’t care if I have to change the muffler or not, but what’s the reason behind this rule change?
I believe I’m already good anyways.
Why did you guys get two mufflers when one is cheaper to begin with? I got my "custom" catback for $150.

#45

BETO wrote:
I believe I’m already good anyways.
Why did you guys get two mufflers when one is cheaper to begin with?

Beto,

So did your car come with just a single pipe all the way back? Did you use a dual in and out muffler? or did you Y into the single muffler? If you really go with the "if it don’t say you can you can’t" rule then you better have a dual in and out if your car was dual to begen with. No provisions for adding a Y or converting a dual to single system.

Michael O.

#46

Michael,
referring to:
9.3.4.1.4. A single or twin tube system may (3.1) be used.

since all of the cars came with dual tube headers, a Y pipe has to be allowed somewhere in the system to allow for freedom to choose a single or twin tube system. And it doesn’t say I have to start my modified system before the CAT, that is just an allowance (i.e. I believe I can change from the stock twin tube to a single tube whereever I choose, and vice versa for the cars which have a single tube as stock)

just my personal interpretation.
bruce

#47

I also have two Flo Pro Twister muffler that look like glasspacks and I’d rather not have to spend the money to change it.

My car is still street legal and still has the cat FWIW.

Don

#48

ilateapex wrote:

[quote]BETO wrote:
I believe I’m already good anyways.
Why did you guys get two mufflers when one is cheaper to begin with?

Beto,

So did your car come with just a single pipe all the way back? Did you use a dual in and out muffler? or did you Y into the single muffler? If you really go with the "if it don’t say you can you can’t" rule then you better have a dual in and out if your car was dual to begen with. No provisions for adding a Y or converting a dual to single system.

Michael O.[/quote]
The only way to have a single tube is having a Y somewhere, if I don’t have a cat, then the Y can be in the down pipe, middle or before the muffler. It doesn’t have to say in the rules you can have a Y since it already states you can have a single pipe.
I agree with Bruce, but then again I’m not the rule maker, and perhaps they could make this clearer. I like graphics, that helps.

#49

First of all, we appreciate everyone’s comments, respectful and not, about the exhaust issue.

A few comments to the group…

  1. We were waiting for a specific supplier to give us results from their testing. Those results never came, even after my telephone calls.

  2. We were too quick to post that particular rule.

  3. Don’t change your exhaust.

  4. The Regional Series Directors and I will discuss the exhaust rules, and yes, your voices are heard.

  5. If/when a change is made, my exhaust will have to change too.

  6. If/when a change is made, everyone will have a long time to make the change.

  7. Drivers have complained to us that the exhaust systems need to be more uniform.

  8. This weekend at Summit Point, I will examine several exhaust systems and need the drivers to tell me how much they spent on their exhaust. We will also be dynoing several cars and will look at how, if possible, the exhust affects the numbers.

Carter

#50

This is great news Carter. I am glad our voices are heard even if in the end I have to change my system. I will be at Summit and planned on dynoing while there and see if the different AFM helped my curve. Will be glad to give all the details of anything you need.

Michael O.

#51

Carter,
I will get a tally sheet of what the cars in Norcal are currently running at the june 30th event. I will also look over all the HPDE cars preparing for Spece30.

#52

While a more uniform (i.e. spec) exhaust would address that issue, it does open the question as to how extensive the specification should be. To be completely fair and uniform I think the rule would have to cover from the headers back and require retaining the OE (or OE equivalent) catalytic converter and front resonator since not all cars are "track only" and some may have to meet local emissions and registration requirements.

I have a suspicion that the greatest gains in the exhaust lie in reducing restriction in the front section (using a "test" pipe or gutting the cats & resonator). Any car that has to retain this part of the exhaust will thus be at a disadvantage, regardless of what’s done with rear section of the exhaust.

Obviously this is a pretty big can of worms. And it might mean that a "street and emissions legal" exhaust would have to be called out as the spec exhaust. An alternative to a single vendor spec exhaust might be to require an OE or OE equivalent (i.e. COTS 50 state street legal exhaust) from the headers back and perhaps permit gutting of the catalytic converters.

I suspect that to get meaningful results you’d really need to dyno one car using different exhaust configurations. That seems to me to be the only way to determine what contribution the exhaust makes.

#53

Idea for a spec exhaust think this would give us a good flow.

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#54

you da 87isMan! :laugh:

.

#55

That’s the worst idea ever, it should be facing the other direction!

#56

give me a break I could no find one facing the other direction.

Tough crowd!!!

#57

For those who have not changed, leaving the at in place makes building a replacement system easier.

However, I think most everyone currently racing has dumped their cat, which means it was cut off. And since it is illegal to buy/sell used ones :unsure: I don’t know how those built cars will get back into compliance without large expenditures.

A bit of a quagmire. I’m anxious to hear the actual dyno results.

#58

While I failed to explicitly state it, I guess that was kind of of my point. I’d guess that the majority of the Spec E30’s don’t have catalytic converters and aren’t required to have them, being classed as off-road track only cars. But some fraction of Spec E30’s do have to retain the catalytic conveerters. And that fraction may be required to pass annual inspection.

So do you pick a spec exhaust that works for all cases, which would require retrofitting catalytic converters to most of the cars? Or do you make an exception for the small faction that have to retain the front section w/catalytic converters? The first option would be the closest to the Spec philosophy of trying to keep the cars equal and making it a drivers race, but it would be a sizable expense for the majority.

What’s really needed is dyno data from a single car (to eliminate differences in engines) using a variety of exhausts w/wo catalytic converters & front resonator. That will tell what advantage the exhaust might provide and would serve as the basis for picking a spec exhaust or abandoning the entire concept.

#59

Sorry to sound like an ass, but the idea that we try to keep these cars "streetable" is silly. They’re race cars, not street cars. My car has a growing list of stuff that would make it fail any inspection that follows the letter of the law (i.e. no horn, no DOT seatbelts, no cat, etc., etc.). If you want to keep your car street legal, that’s a personal decision that should not dictate the rules for the rest of us.

Sasha

#60

Ex36 wrote:

[quote]Sorry to sound like an ass, but the idea that we try to keep these cars "streetable" is silly. They’re race cars, not street cars. My car has a growing list of stuff that would make it fail any inspection that follows the letter of the law (i.e. no horn, no DOT seatbelts, no cat, etc., etc.). If you want to keep your car street legal, that’s a personal decision that should not dictate the rules for the rest of us.

Sasha[/quote]

My sentiments exactly.