NEW RULES

#21

I’m with you Al, and unfortunately, feel somewhat responsible for starting this mess. When Mike posted his custom exhaust, with the 1.75 to 2 to 2.5 inch stepped up exhaust (note the new rule saying same diameter) and then made the most horsepower (but not torque!) at Mid-Ohio, I believe this lead to the current discussion and rule about a standard/spec exhaust. As was discussed in a previous thread, all of the cars were within 5% of the average horsepower at the Mid-ohio event. I believe the only way to adequately and equitably resolve this would be to have a single source exhaust - either single or twin-tube, but not both, that we are all required to run, just like springs/shocks.
Ed

#22

I already asked Mike directly, and it is one muffler even if there are twin pipes.
bruce

Ex36 wrote:

[quote]I just read through Bruce’s PDF comparison and it appears that a "twin pipe" system is permitted. Obviously the definition of a "system" needs to be clarified, i.e. does a system have one glass pack per pipe? All I did was gut the cat and sleeve a 2" glass pack over each pipe where the OEM muffler was located. Pipe diameters were preserved (they’re the stock pipes) as was the cross-over.

Sasha[/quote]

#23

If it is one muffler, how many on the board have to change their setup and how long have you had it?

Michael O.

Must Change - 2 mufflers, Changes size, Maybe too large ID (have to check).

Installed 2 months

#24

Exhast part deux

Well maybe I should not be in this discussion as I havent read the new rule…but if the intent is to have the exhast "spec" to keep anyone from having an advantage they will all have to be bent and welded by the same man on the same machine. My point is just changing the layout/size rule in writing still allows someone with a little knowledge to gain an advantage. I am for leaving the rule alone as I thought that was part of the spec e30 philosophy. Again, if the intent is to make them equal they will have to come from one source and will cost EVERYONE more $$.

Al

#25

FARTBREF wrote:

[quote]Exhast part deux

Well maybe I should not be in this discussion as I havent read the new rule…but if the intent is to have the exhast "spec" to keep anyone from having an advantage they will all have to be bent and welded by the same man on the same machine. My point is just changing the layout/size rule in writing still allows someone with a little knowledge to gain an advantage. I am for leaving the rule alone as I thought that was part of the spec e30 philosophy. Again, if the intent is to make them equal they will have to come from one source and will cost EVERYONE more $$.

Al[/quote]

maybe we could hold ExhastFest 08 at your place— Al. Everyone could get them done at once. It would be an event

#26

Well my cousin went and measured my exhaust today (I am working out of town) and what I have is 25” of 1.75” ID pipe and then increase to 2” OD pipe back to two cherry bombs. I paid $247 (cheapest I could find in town) for this in early April. I don’t want to offend the powers that be but as a new Spec E30 racer who built is car this season rules coming out in June stating such changes are a real downer. I have been looking for new rules since I began building this car and have been promised they were coming out numerous times in a few days with nothing happening. I am not saying I could do better and I respect Mike and Carter but this just plane sucks. I did not have the option of using the stock exhaust as it was rusted in numerous places and had to be replaced. It is bad enough to those who have to change which I assume is most of us but at least those racing last year got more than one season out of their system. I will get about 4 or 5 events and then have to spend again to be compliant.

Does not seem to be much I can do but It still upsets me having to spend again on something I could have done once and got right if the rules would have been out. I would suggest anyone who is building to not start until the rules for that year are out no matter if that means you miss some races or even a season.

Those planning on building an exhaust make sure you read the rule carefully. You need a single muffler but it does not say you can Y into it, so it must be a 2 in and 2 out if using a duel system. Also, must get a muffler with the same ID as the pipe as you cannot reduce for it.

Sorry to be on the soap box but for a low budget class I would have thought more time for this type of change. Feels like CR again.

Michael O.

#27

I knew this would happen. I waited & waited to the last minute to do the exhaust hoping the promised rule change would be made so I could comply & do it once. I had to get it done LAST WEEK, because my 1st race will be Summit next week. Did the double cherry bomb. Timing! Just missed by a few days.
But, the rule was announced way ahead of the effective date & it was bound to catch a few of us like this. No way to avoid that.
tomzzy

#28

How about wait until '09 to implement. And make sure it is in the final form.

Michael O.

#29

ilateapex wrote:

[quote]How about wait until '09 to implement. And make sure it is in the final form.

Michael O.[/quote]

Hey Mike, I understand your frustration, I have a cat back, hand made exhaust that cost me to have built. But, it’s not til next season and who knows they may mandate a specific exhaust and if they do I am fine with that since no one will have a particular exhaust advantage…next year. Just my 2 cents. In the grand skeme of things… what’s another $250 :blink: I’m dying over here!!!

#30

Mike, I wouldn’t worry about it much. It would seem rule compliance is only a problem if another racer has a problem with it.

#31

after being away all weekend, a few monday morning thoughts,

  1. yes, it sucks to have recently done an exhaust that you have to change
  2. the intent going forward is for incremental changes to the rules that are made at any time - they do not intend to make "yearly" rules updates
  3. rules enforcement is being incrementally stepped up
    thanks,
    bruce
#32

This is ridiculous.

Why the hell do we need a spec exhaust NOW?

Was there some sort of dispute that couldn’t be solved without creating a new rule?

There must 20-25 cars with custom exhausts already. Now after spending that money, we’re all going to have to go back and replace everything again.

Great. Way to keep costs down.

#33

Yet, another in the camp of "If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it."

I do not understand the emphasis on exhaust systems. Spend some time on the dyno testing different configurations and you’ll find that the results (once the power-robbing cat is deleted @ about 5-6hp ) are not enough different. I’ve sent a note to Carter to this effct.

Let’s give it time and hope that change is not required. The track record of your rules directors is to be admired.

Regards, Robert Patton

#34

Add me to the growing group of racers that is in strong disagreement with the new change.

Just like Michael O, I would have to change my entire system.

I think the group has stated it best - the new exhaust rule will cost us all a bunch of money, and will not do anything to keep the cars equal.

I agree with Patton that our rules czars have done a splendid job in the past. However, this is the first time that a rule change has a serious impact on the group of existing racers, which is now a substantial number of people.

The rule will NOT make the cars more equal, but will only serve to sepereate the haves from the have nots, and will cost EVERYONE money, time, and effort. I don’t understand the new exhaust rule at all. Why would you get away from glasspacks which have been great for everyone? Why would you spec a diameter without at least looking at what the majority of the drivers already have?

I’m baffled by this latest rule change, and hope that the powers that be will reconsider.

-Vic
#325

#35

Can we bargain?

I say if you are making me spend megabucks on the exhaust, I want you to make my 14x6.5 basketweaves legal.

:woohoo:

#36

My buddy has a dyno. We’ve dynoed both our cars with different exhuasts and as patton said the only increase in horsepower you will see is when you delete the cat. Everyone pretty much has the same exhaust. Both our cars have glasspack type mufflers(2) on them. If you truly want a spec exhuast get one guy with one machine to make them. That’s the only way it will be SPEC. IMO that would take the series in the wrong direction and cause alot of us to spend money that we don’t need to.

Common sense note: Cars with less miles are going to make more power. If you have a spec exhaust this will still ring true.

#37

This new rule is pretty far off base from the nature of spec E30. Based on the number of responses it is not a popular rule change. I’m pretty PISSED that I just spent $300 3 months ago on a new exhaust that was compliant. It would have been nice to know in January about this new change. Now I have to piss away another $300 that I could put towards my H&N device. I agree with the comments that 80% of the spec E30 racers really don’t care about what exhaust system another spec e30 driver installed. I think it’s a complete waste of money, and goes against the nature of the series. I hope this unpopular change can be rectified.

#38

Not here to complain, just voicing my opinion since that’s what the internet was designed for :wink:

I am not in favor of the spec muffler/exhaust package. I too have converted a once decent exhaust over to being SE30 compliance at the start of this year for about $230. Then it broke at Road Atl. Got it fixed ($150). Now the flex tube broke (probably from the original problem) so it’s once again back to getting fixed for CMP knowing that it’s going to have to go back in again later for this new rule compliance. Ugh.

Money spent on exhaust work (and not races) is money not well spent.

#39

Cherry Bombs FTW!
My other ‘fear’ with this rule as it is starting to sound is that we may be forced to buy the system pre-made from one supplier. I have yet to see any ‘custom’ aftermarket exhaust system affordably priced. There really is no substitute for the local pipe bender making one up for you and slapping a Bomb or two on the back. It’s cheap, it works, it’s durable.

Judging by the replies on this board, here is a case where the competitors do NOT want a rule change. Benevolant dictatorship or not, this may be a time to consider listening to the peasants. If we don’t feel there’s a problem, then why make one?

Still running my stock exhaust system because I don’t want to wind up in the same boat as these other guys.

#40

Add my voice to the "this isn’t a problem that needs solving" camp. I’ve got a muffler-shop system with a pair of cheap glasspacks and I’m very happy with it.

What I haven’t seen explained well is the rationale for the change, especially now that there are, what, maybe 50 cars already built and the racing has never been better.

It just doesn’t make sense.