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My family is freaking out that I bought a “race car” and is telling me that I need to form an LLC to put the car in, that I need to find out what kind of special insurance I need to get, etc. It all seems outrageous.
What do you all do to protect your self from liability in your racing?
Have there ever been any instances in lawsuits coming from on-track accidents, either in SE30 or other club racing?
Does anyone have a copy of the waivers we’re supposed to sign every time we enter a track?
I believe the popular strategy is to stay broke by racing, thereby removing any attraction for the PI lawyers.
[quote]Have there ever been any instances in lawsuits coming from on-track accidents, either in SE30 or other club racing?[/quote]Never heard of anything from a NASA or SCCA event. Grassroots covered an issue that Sports Car Market also covered in depth.
Carrera GT / Ferrari Club lawsuit
IMHO, putting the car in an LLC will not help. A waiver will not help. A clever attorney will figure out every party involved who has deep pockets…
Dont know anything about legal crap…but if you choose to go on a race track, if someone runs into you, even on purpose, you share the liability because you choose to go on a race track…so keep that in mind, if a total dumbass makes a total dumbass move and your car gets totaled well you are just out of luck…and hopefully you dont have any damage to your person.
Al
[quote=“priapism” post=61517]My family is freaking out that I bought a “race car” and is telling me that I need to form an LLC to put the car in, that I need to find out what kind of special insurance I need to get, etc. It all seems outrageous.
What do you all do to protect your self from liability in your racing?
Have there ever been any instances in lawsuits coming from on-track accidents, either in SE30 or other club racing?
Does anyone have a copy of the waivers we’re supposed to sign every time we enter a track?[/quote]
An LLC ultimately won’t help–google “piercing the corporate veil”.
There is no insurance you can buy, and if you could, you couldn’t afford it.
You protect yourself by making sure the sanctioning body and track require that EVERYONE sign the waiver and runs a reasonably safe event.
There have been lawsuits invovling club racing (and all types of racing). Most are driver/guest v. track/sanctioning body rather than driver/guest v. driver. Waivers (and other defenses inherent to dangerous activities) do work in almost all jurisdictions. If it was a problem, do you think we’d all be here doing this?
[quote=“cosm3os” post=61520][quote=“priapism” post=61517]My family is freaking out that I bought a “race car” and is telling me that I need to form an LLC to put the car in, that I need to find out what kind of special insurance I need to get, etc. It all seems outrageous.
What do you all do to protect your self from liability in your racing?
Have there ever been any instances in lawsuits coming from on-track accidents, either in SE30 or other club racing?
Does anyone have a copy of the waivers we’re supposed to sign every time we enter a track?[/quote]
An LLC ultimately won’t help–google “piercing the corporate veil”.
There is no insurance you can buy, and if you could, you couldn’t afford it.
You protect yourself by making sure the sanctioning body and track require that EVERYONE sign the waiver and runs a reasonably safe event.
There have been lawsuits invovling club racing (and all types of racing). Most are driver/guest v. track/sanctioning body rather than driver/guest v. driver. Waivers (and other defenses inherent to dangerous activities) do work in almost all jurisdictions. If it was a problem, do you think we’d all be here doing this?[/quote]
I agree an LLC won’t help because no matter who owns the car, it’s me driving.
I don’t see it as a huge problem, but it’s harder to prove something isn’t a problem than that it is.
If it was a problem, we wouldn’t be doing it and insurance companies would not be issuing policies to sanctioning bodies and tracks (which would prevent us from doing it, too).
If you haven’t raced before, 99.9% of racers live by a code–something gets damaged, you are on your own. Heck, I’ve turned down offers to pay for damage caused in a racing incident, and would expect others to do the same. Sets a bad precedent. Intentional conduct or being a total ass-hat is a different thing.
[quote=“cosm3os” post=61523]If it was a problem, we wouldn’t be doing it and insurance companies would not be issuing policies to sanctioning bodies and tracks (which would prevent us from doing it, too).
If you haven’t raced before, 99.9% of racers live by a code–something gets damaged, you are on your own. Heck, I’ve turned down offers to pay for damage caused in a racing incident, and would expect others to do the same. Sets a bad precedent. Intentional conduct or being a total ass-hat is a different thing.[/quote]
I know…I don’t need convincing, I need to convince people that live and work on the 23rd floor of Manhattan office towers that have never seen a race car or a race track.
[quote=“FARTBREF” post=61519]your car gets totaled well you are just out of luck…and hopefully you dont have any damage to your person.
Al[/quote]
The real “insurance” needed is a good safety system in your car, and the assumption that everyone else has one as well. Since we’re all millionaire playboys, we know that part of racing is the risk of losing lots of money very quickly, and we’re okay with that. One’s health, on the other hand, is much more difficult to replace if damaged.
[quote=“priapism” post=61521]I don’t see it as a huge problem, but it’s harder to prove something isn’t a problem than that it is.[/quote]Very true.
On one hand, the fact that I’ve been turned down for an umbrella policy due to my racing activity leads me to conclude that the insurance underwriters deem it a liability risk.
On the other hand, I dare say I am less likely to inflict injury on others on the race track than by hurtling my 195 lb uncoordinated, goofy ass down the ski slope at exciting speeds.
Many activities I find fun also carry some potential liability. There are a lot more people killed on Lake Lanier in boating accidents than on Road Atlanta in driving accidents. Nobody gives you $hit for buying a boat.
Bathtubs kill.
Next in line the shark infested waters of the Atlantic Ocean.
Good luck trying to convince others how to behave after the party is over. There is no answer to your question as none of us know how the greiving family(s) will respond.
RP
( Mom always said, “It is all fun and games 'till someone gets hurt.”)
I don’t think you guys understand what I’m looking for.
I’m looking for any documented cases of someone suing a driver for actions that have happened during a race. Has that happened?
I’m looking for copies of the waivers we all have to sign before a race and before entering the track.
And I’m looking for insurance that might cover me if the unfortunate would possibly happen.
[quote=“priapism” post=61542]I don’t think you guys understand what I’m looking for.
I’m looking for any documented cases of someone suing a driver for actions that have happened during a race. Has that happened?
I’m looking for copies of the waivers we all have to sign before a race and before entering the track.
And I’m looking for insurance that might cover me if the unfortunate would possibly happen.[/quote]
No, we completely understand. Good luck in your quest to find the documentation.I will not say it doesn’t exist, but…, well good luck,cause each situation is different.
Your bigger concern with those overlooking your shoulder is the difficulty YOU will have in purchasing life insurance IF it is not purchased PRIOR to you declaring that you race a car.
RP
[quote=“priapism” post=61542]I don’t think you guys understand what I’m looking for.
I’m looking for any documented cases of someone suing a driver for actions that have happened during a race. Has that happened?[/quote]I’m sure there are cases that have been decided in both directions. Taking internet legal advice is worse than M20 rebuild advice from Ranger. :laugh: What? Too soon to bust his b@lls?
Anyway, hit up Cosm3os. He’s a motorsports attorney (which I think means he’s a regular attorney who flushes racing expenses through his LLP 
)
[quote] And I’m looking for insurance that might cover me if the unfortunate would possibly happen.[/quote]Cancel your race license. Sell your race car. Apply for a big ol’ umbrella. When they ask “are you a race car driver” you can answer “no”. Then wait 6 months and buy your old car back.
[quote=“Patton” post=61544]
Your bigger concern with those overlooking your shoulder is the difficulty YOU will have in purchasing life insurance IF it is not purchased PRIOR to you declaring that you race a car.[/quote]Or call Steve Goldin in South Florida (steve dot goldin at usi dot biz). He got me rated as a preferred risk (or whatever they call normal rates for healthy, boring middle aged dudes) even with my racing activities. For low power cars like Miatas and E30s, he can explain it to the underwriters. He’s a long-time SCCA racer.
He gave some good advice earlier. It’s still hard when certain people aren’t happy unless there’s an insurance policy in place.
People get injured and sued over ski boating accidents all the time, yet we’ve got this stigma.
[quote=“FARTBREF” post=61552]Note to Steve D
Do not come to Colorado…
Al[/quote]See you in Vail on Tuesday, OK?
@SteveD–I have too much respect for the power of the IRS to pull that crap!
I’ve given all the advice that ethical rules (insert ethical lawyer joke here) and client relationships allow.
OP, racing is risky business. We risk property, health and life everytime we go out. We can mitigate that risk with safety equipment and waivers, but this will never be a risk-free endeavor. You have all the information you need, you just need to decide if you can accept the risks.
Call the closest track and they can fax you a copy of the waiver signed at the track entrance.
Apply for life Insurance in the amount for your personal needs. If you already have it, great, if you don’t then do it now, you should have it if people count on you. DO disclose your intent to race. You will need to complete a form showing how much and at what speeds. Some Ins. Companies will not add an additional charge some will. Shop around. You may pay more on your Disability and Life Insurance, consider that part of your costs. My Life Ins. Company charged me double while I was Karting, but I receive their cheapest rates now that I race Spec E30. Genworth is the company. Depends on the state and the company.
I am not an attorney, anything can go to court though. I used to drive a GT3 at the track, decided things happen to fast at 150mph so Spec E30 seemed to have less risk not none, but less. That is why most Ins co. will ask about speeds attained in your race.
Make sure all your coverages are where they need to be. Then learn and only race with people you like and some what trust. Stay away from people you don’t.
At 70-80 average speeds for us here in CA, both on the track and on the freeways, I trust being in my E30 over being in my Ford F-250 or my BMW 650i. Just me.
Call Patrick Lull at: http://www.capcoverage.com/motorsports.html I got my Storage and Transportation Insurance from him. When My race car was stolen they paid. He deals with the pro Motorsports world too so he may be able to put some coverage in place that may help you with your families concerns. I’d call the people mentioned by the other posters as well.
I hope you can work it out. have fun. Be safe.
Looks to me like you have been given a lot of quality advice, from experienced folks. go use it.
BTW: Racing is Dangerous…Period