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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6644515185227623842&q=e30+at+VIR&hl=en
would love to here some input from you guys on my line, and get any tips how to get faster.:woohoo:
I know I should be shifting to 5th on the straights.:woohoo: I did on Sunday.
Looking at racing vid I should have named this post diff. between DE and Racing.
oh I still can :silly:
Are you guys in second at oaktree?
Thanks in advance
Greg
The best way for me to show you would be a video. Im not the fastest guy around VIR but it might help.
dry:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5936391735621026327&hl=en
Rain:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-385101642815091535&hl=en
I did notice you could get on the gas a little sooner in 3.
Hope it helps.
87isMan wrote:
[quote]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6644515185227623842&q=e30+at+VIR&hl=en
would love to here some input from you guys on my line, and get any tips how to get faster.:woohoo:
[/quote]
Without riding with you it is a little hard to give constructive comments based on a video. Your line looks fine for the most part. The one area I didn’t like is the end of the back straight and the braking into the roller coaster. You treat it like 2 corners, you brake go left and then brake again and go right at the top of the roller coaster. You should straight line that section and just treat it as one braking zone. You’ll be able to brake much much later. In my J-Stock car I would brake at the red dot, can’t remember where that is but it’ll give you some idea.
87isMan wrote:
You will as you get more experience and as you pick up speed.
87isMan wrote:
I personally do not, but if I was going at the speed you were going I would definitely shift down to 2nd. (Sorry that sounded bad that is not a knock on your driving but you get the idea). Even at racing speeds there is nothing wrong with using 2nd there, it might gain you a smidge. I’m not convinced and the opportunity for a miss shift there out weighs the benefit of using 2nd for me. The tranny is loaded to the left coming into that corner and on my J-Stock car I would have trouble finding 2nd sometimes, in the end it just wasn’t worth it. I will use 2nd if I get held up in the corner by traffic though.
87isMan wrote:
[quote]
Thanks in advance
Greg[/quote]
No worries I hope I was at least a little help.
Your line was better at T1 before your instructor told you to turn later. That’s the typical school line which is good if you have horsepower, but we don’t. Turn in a little earlier than normal and make sure you use every inch of track out.
Do the above right and you will be in 4th before T3. Downshift and carry more speed.
5th through the uphill esses flat on the throttle (or close). This is something you must work up to, don’t try it next time you’re on the track.
3rd through Oak Tree unless you’re in traffic.
Compress braking zone at 14.
4th before hogpen, braking later. Again, this is something to work up to.
mskeen wrote:
[quote]Your line was better at T1 before your instructor told you to turn later. That’s the typical school line which is good if you have horsepower, but we don’t. Turn in a little earlier than normal and make sure you use every inch of track out.
Do the above right and you will be in 4th before T3. Downshift and carry more speed.
5th through the uphill esses flat on the throttle (or close). This is something you must work up to, don’t try it next time you’re on the track.
3rd through Oak Tree unless you’re in traffic.
Compress braking zone at 14.
4th before hogpen, braking later. Again, this is something to work up to.[/quote]
Not that the others were not great help but I think this is a really good post. Particularly (me) being a rookie racer but a semi-seasoned instructor the "work up to" is invaluable advice.
edit: looked at the video some more and I think you need much more seat time before you start asking (or working) on such specific questions about your line, gearing, etc. Were is your left hand? Right hand has a bit of a death grip look to it and unless your legs are 5ft long you are way to far away from the wheel. Levarage and quick movements are difficult straight-armed. Stick with "9 and 3" on the wheel; shuffling is difficult to do correctly. When was the last time you autocrossed? Work with your on-limit skills there as it is a much more safe environment. Watch your feet (not literally of course) while on track. Is your right foot dancing between the throttle and brake but not really moving either? Left foot on the clutch pedal while not shifting? All indications of indiciveness and need of more track time. Ballsy getting on a race forum and posting your DE video; big respect for that! Get some more seat time bud and have fun!
Mike beat me to it!
Your line likely has very little to do with going faster (unless you were in the firebird in front of you :blink: )
The reason that I say that is that the faster you go, the more you have to modify your turning points.
Biggest bang for the buck -
Seat time!
I remember my first couple DE’s (PCA) in my Boxster. As I would approach the braking zone on the front straight I had this feeling of "oh #*$%" thinking that I was too late. In fact, the more I drove, the more comfortable I felt with speed and braking potential so that it would feel natural approaching the braking point with the foot to the floor.
The whole thing is like a ballet. Smooth, fluid, balanced. The more seat time you have, the more comfortable you will feel and the more you can push and the faster you will go.
Couple Pointers -
Braking - when I first started in DE’s, I though that the most important requirement to going fast was threshold braking. Couldn’t have been more wrong. IMHO - the closer you put your car to the edge, the more likely you are to make a mistake. That mistake will cost you much more time than the couple thousandths that you saved by waiting until the last possible moment.
That said, check out some video I clipped to illustrate the difference between a rookie on the track and myself in the braking zones at VIR
http://www.mediamax.com/erupert66/Hosted/RaceVideos/VIR_Rookie_Driving.wmv
Guys lost a ton of time slowpoking through the corners and braking gingerly. Look how much track I was able to make up on them in the braking zones.
Another huge one - Use ALL of the track. This too will come with time, but you know the fastest way through the corner is to make it as straight as possible. many rookies will start their turn in a 1/2 car width from the edge. Makes the turn tighter. Ditto on the exit. Our cars (speaking of my 944, haven’t had the e30 to SP yet), can’t over shoot turn 9 at Summit with the correct line. However, I always run right to the outer edge. Why? Steering input is force against forward motion. If you can open the wheel sooner, you’ll have that much more forward motion.
Another common mistake - trying to go faster by entering the corner too fast.
This leads to throttle modulation which isn’t accelerate and translates to lost time.
Lots of rookies, as they go faster, tend to turn in too early. Later is almost always better. Generally speaking, if you are waiting until you are past the apex to "nail it", you are turning in too early and you are losing time. Your car should be at an angle that you can apply full throttle as the earliest possible moment following the release of the brake pedal. The point of braking (besides setting up the proper entry speed for the corner), is to set the angle of the car. You should already be starting your turn in BEFORE you release the brake pedal. This allows the maximum weight transfer to be on the turning wheels and off the trailing wheels. This allows the car to "rotate" vs. turn and set up the proper angle as you head for the apex. We could both be at the same exact apex point in the corner but have our cars pointed in different directions. The idea is to have your car’s angle set up in such a way that full throttle is not propelling you off the track out point but rather in a controlled, side-slide type motion. Technically, as soon as you are full-throttle, you have started your next straightaway. The earlier you get to that point, the longer straightaway you will have.
Oh well, this turned out much longer than I thought :huh:
These are all my opinions so treat them as such. If they help, enjoy, if not, oh well. I really enjoy instruction type activities, it’s just hard to do on a race weekend. That said, I’d be happy to talk to any rookie at the track and help however I can.
Great Stuff! I’m picking up info from reading Eric, Simon, Matt, Mike and Mike. Perhaps we should all stop the advice while we are ahead (literally).
Nah, it is rewarding to help those that want to learn.
One question that I have for all of my solo or "A" students, "You’re darned good. Do you want to be faster? Two to three seconds a lap faster?"
They always answer, "yeah, sure, but how am I going to do that?"
Response, "Put a race number on the side of the car. You’ll be surprised how much time you can improve when you are forced to compete."
That response has yet to be disproven. And, to this day, I’m still finding ways to improve as there is always someone in this series that has the talent and/or better prepared car to show me a faster way around the track.
Greg, seat time is the answer. Put a number on the side of the car. Pay your dues. Race safe. Good luck
Regards, Robert Patton
Great posts! I’m in total agreement with erupert66. Threshold braking is not a good place to gain time, sure if you are braking like a nancy way to early then sure, what is more important is that you set your entry speed to the correct speed. If you brake earlier, nice and smooth and hit your entry on the limit each time you are much better off than threshold braking later and slowing the car too much, or over shooting the turn. I’ll add that for corners that require little braking especially fast sweepers this concept is even more important. For instance the left hander after the uphill esses (south bend?). Don’t worry about braking hard and late, you should be most worried about setting the entry speed as high as possible. For me this means sometimes braking a little earlier but not hard and just being smooth into the entry. As a DE guy the first place to look for time is the exit of the corner, get the line right and just try to get to full throttle as early as you feel comfortable, see where your revs are at the exit or when you start braking. At putnam this past weekend there are couple of corners that I ran out of revs right before braking, this was a great audible warning (rev limiter) of how well I got out of the previous corner. After that work on corner entry and trail braking. Many instructors will want you to complete your braking before you turn, this is not the fastest way around. Trail braking not only means you can brake later but you can use it to rotate the car. Generally you will use trail braking more in slow or tighter corners, turn 1 at VIR is a good spot. Your transition from brake to accelerator should be as seemless as possible. And of course all of this will become more natural with seat time, ultimately racing will take you to another level. As robert said I’ve yet to see a rookie not improve on his best times after his first race. Get lots of seat time and then join us racing and continue the learning.
Guys, I’m calling to order this meeting of the Mutual Appreciation Society.
Seriously speaking, I’ve hit the print button and will hand this post’s contents to students. It, along with excerpts from the Ross Bentley go-faster books, make for great instructional material.
Others?
Regards, Robert Patton
Thread hijack…Simon, tell us about your new car.Perhaps post elsewhere or e-mail.
One more video to compare to. This is the Record Lap for '44 Cup that I set at the Feb event in '05 and still stands. 2:18.221 in a 3150lb NA 944.
If you looked at the other clip, you’ll notice it’s a continuation of that video. He gave me the point by on the front straight but I was held up a bit at the start. In addition, as I watch it again, I see a few mistakes leading me to believe that a 17 was definately available that day. I just couldn’t get there. For the rookies, there’s good audio on the recording, listen to the engine and think about where you are/are not on full throttle.
Enjoy!
http://www.mediamax.com/erupert66/Hosted/RaceVideos/VIR_44Cup_RecordLap.wmv
Thank you very much to everyone who replied. I was out of town all weekend, so I just finished reading all of your replies. This was my 6th DE weekend, and I am in no way trying to rush this process, but I am hooked. I know this is a racing forum, but there are lots of people on here like me who are building cars while doing DE’
s which will also be able to gain info from this post. Of all the advice I am taking seat time to be the most important, so I will get out there every chance I get.
I look forward to watching all the vid links you guys posted tonight.
Again thanks you guys are great.
Greg
Patton wrote:
+1
The other memorable quote from Patton:
"Use all of the track, you paid for it."