Dyno Sheets-Comments here

#1

All:

I’m not a web-savy guy so the dyno sheets will be posted in the Gallery under "Dyno Sheets."

I’m taking my family to supper now (6:50 pm Eastern time) so I’ll scan the rest later tonight.

Feel free to comment here.

Carter

#2

Carter,

  1. Although I think Dyno sheets are a good idea, they are only a snapshot in time. I much prefer random dyno testing at the track with the results posted next to the event they were taken.

  2. Also I don’t think the "Acceptable HP Range" is written down or posted anywhere in the rules or online. I know from talking to guys at the track that HP should be no more than 150ish @ RW’s on the high end, but that’s a guess.

    My thinking is that since everyone is running ‘essentially’ the same engine, we establish a Max HP # that is just slightly above the reasonable capability of a professionally rebuilt legal engine. This will have two benefits. First, there will be no incentive to bumping up the HP on an engine since if it goes over the limit, it would be illegal. Second it would provide a gauge of ‘healthiness’’ for any motor that’s dynoed.

Just my thoughts…with all that said, I’m still happy with the way things are right now . The "front straight" dyno doesn’t have anyone doing anything miraculous yet:-)

#3

So the rules don’t establish a max HP and I don’t think that would be the right way to go. You could just do random dyno testing and anyone over a max HP number would get flagged to impound and a teardown done. Now the question is who would be the one putting up the bond for the teardown costs?

#4

traqrat wrote:

No teardown required…If the motor makes more HP than allowed, then the car is DQ’ed just like post race weight.

Like I said…I’m not suggesting we do this. I’m happy with the rules as they are. If someone’s got a "built" engine it’ll show up on the track.

#5

All:

We’re working on a program right now.

We’ll probably detemine a specific number as the maximum hp on a dynojet. Anyone over that limit after a race gets dq’d.

We will continue to dyno cars at the track. If anyone builds a motor and there is a dyno at the track, and you’re concerned about breaking through the max number, dyno your car before the race. If it’s above the magic number, a home-made restrictor plate will get you down to where you need to be. And yes, the cars will go directly to the scales and then directly to the dyno.

And we reserve the right to look at any part of any car at any time.

It’s not set in stone right now but we’re discussing it with race car and engine builders and we’ll have it settled by next season.

Carter

#6

Nice. This is a good decision so that people can’t spend tons of money on a stock rebuild.

So what’s up with that one dyno sheet that was up in the high 150hp range? That seems like a VERY healthy motor. I’ve seen mildly built M20’s with cams just tap 160.

#7

Don’t put any stock in my 150ish guess…because that’s all it is…a guess. I have no idea what kind of HP any of the racing E30’s make. Dyno time is to expensive to worry about it.

Update: 20 minutes after first posting…I just saw the dyno #'s posted in the galleries. Looks like my 150ish guess wasn’t too shabby.

#8

Lance,

That would be the Davidson’s #30. I can’t really explain it except that it is likely the lowest mileage motor ~ 80k. It has a K&N intake, valves adjusted loose 10s. It is all stock otherwise except the exhaust, which based on discussions at the track seems to be a critical component to get the right balance for good hp.

I think if you look closely to the sheets we were about 4 hp higher than the next highest #, but about 4 ft-lb lower on torque.

Ed

#9

I would say any motor making over 160whp is making too much power. A fresh rebuild with spec E30 mods should make 155ish max whp maybe a little higher but no more than 160whp. I’m not an engine builder just a researcher. The low mileage cars at nationals obviously made the most horsepower but not a considerable amount more. As brain said the "back straight" dyno proves the series is still very close in terms of horsepower.

#10

So does this mean that we all believe that these motors in our race form are incapable of legally making more than 188hp? I am using 15% drivetrain loss to calculate that figure from the 160whp number that is being thrown around.

160/.85 = 188

The other point I want to bring up is given the rules, could it be possible to reduce the drivetrain loss below the 15%? Various cars have the mechanical fans removed, the A/C belts gone, the Power Steering gone, racing weight synthetic oil in motor/tranny/diff, etc.
I just want to make sure that we are all clear before we put a formal rule in place.
Thanks.
Jon

#11

Well the factory specs for the M20 are 168 flywheel HP (I think). Don’t forget the engine can be built with an .020 overbore and still be legal. The head can be milled a little and still be in spec so CR will increase, so that is the scenario one should consider for a max HP number.

#12

plus free-flowing exhaust, more open intake, adj FPR, no engine fan may make some difference. (I know the intake benefit is dubious)
Also dyno it with the 14" wheels (slight RWH gearing benefit).

cheers,
bruce

nasaregistrar wrote:

#13

I think the point is we want to prevent people from spending a ton of money to get 160hp at the wheels. There may be some freak stock motors or just good rebuilds that may go over some number, but the only solution to that is either have the motor torn down (very expensive) to prove it is in compliance. So if you have a strong motor (legal or illegal), you’d end up running a restrictor plate and be limited to whatever HP number Carter decides on.

#14

I’m going to have to disagree with the idea of DQ’ing people or requiring them to run a restrictor.
People can spend money all day long if they want, have new tires for every event, figure out the best way to set-up the car through preloading the sway bars, running 5-weight gear oil in the tranny to almost remove any parasitic losses, etc. The tricks are all out there and done by racers in other spec series.
If we want to restrict power and are really worried about it, why not disallow the adjustable fuel pressure regs, disallow the overbore, etc.
Dyno’s are not reliable ways to assert penalties.

#15

I can vouch for the low miles on Mike Davidson’s ride as it used to be mine.

I adjusted the valves…a little loose…and put in new plugs, timing belt and water pump. Didn’t even change the O2 sensor while I owned it.

I put a Filter on it. Changed the fuel pumps and filter.

Makes me feel really slow since Mike is REALLY fast and I had plenty of power it seems!!!

#16

traqrat wrote:

[quote]I think the point is we want to prevent people from spending a ton of money to get 160hp at the wheels. There may be some freak stock motors or just good rebuilds that may go over some number, but the only solution to that is either have the motor torn down (very expensive) to prove it is in compliance. So if you have a strong motor (legal or illegal), you’d end up running a restrictor plate and be limited to whatever HP number Carter decides on.[/quote] There is no question about preventing winning with $$ but where to draw the line is a big question. This series is pretty young and eventually motors WILL get rebuilt and if they are legal rebuilds they could make ??? HP at the wheels. Arbitrarily picking a number to be max, then having a completely legal rebuild exceed it is silly. Putting a restrictor plate on an engine without dyno tuning is a waste and who will have to pay for that?

#17

I am on the fence about this one. On the one hand having a maximum allowed HP would discourage those who have an unlimited racing budget from throwing $$$ at squeezing every last drop of power they can get out of their engines. This would support the spirit of Spec E30 being a budget friendly series for those looking for closely matched cars and letting the better driver win and not the better car.

On the other hand there are those that enjoy the challenge of maxing out their cars and tinkering until the get every last bit of power they can.

After more consideration I would have to support a maximum HP to keep this series from becoming what I dislike so much about some of the other CR series (namely the bickering about Spec E36 and how it will cost $30k for a podium car).

The problem is determining what a fair max HP number is. Without having dyno’s from every built SE30 car on the same dyno at the same time its hard to say what that number is.

#18

Just allow the last running finisher the option to buy the first place finishers engine for 2000 bucks. Any issues with high tech motors are immediately solved.

I personally will probably always run a box stock junk yard motor with the legal bolt on mods to the intake etc. But I will have a well prepped chassis to stay competative. I’m also the only one dumb enough at this point to build a 318is though so go figure. Once there are enough cars running that need engine rebuilds guys are going to massage them. It doesn’t really cost anymore to do it so why not.

#19

Restrictor plates worked in F1 this year, saveing the red bull team millions by allowing them to use their old V10.

Randon dyno’s +
Results posted +
"reasonable" max allowed HP =

inexpensive & close racing.

If anyone’s doing anything more than finding a good running junkyard motor and dropping it into their car…in my opinion they’re waisting money. Racing shoudl be about the DRIVER, not the engine.

my2cts

#20

I am not sure I like the idea of a HP limit while at the same time allowing the mods that are.

Being an engineer and in the construction industry, I have always been told that there can be procedural specs or performance specs but not both. Meaning you can tell some that the performance must be X when done say not over 155HP in our case or you can tell someone that they must follow Y procedure, in our case 20 over pistons, AFPR, free exhaust, etc.

I currently race in GTS where a HP to weight limit is given. I am trying to figure out where to race next and really thinking about SE30. I have been on the dyno a lot this year due to being lucky enought to win quite a few races. The dyno is all over the place from 145 hp at my local dyno to a high of 154 at the track one time and everywhere inbetween. GTS ended up changing the rules to allow an allowance for at the track dyno’s. If you meet your record weight then you are allowed to have a 4 hp variance. Keep in mind where I race in GTS 1 a few HP say, 3 is equal to 55.5 lbs. It was hard to cary enough weight to account for the difference in the dyno’s #'s

I guess what I am trying to say is that the limit on HP based on the dyno at the track is a slippery slope. If going to limit HP but allow certin mods and not others seems counter productive.

My motor is tired and is 20 over, AFPR, exhaust headers, cone filter, and aftermarket chip. I have the same range of HP that you guys have. The 4.27 rear and V710 tires get me about a second on the SE30 guys. The dyno curve is better with the chip but that is about it.

Good racing and think long and hard before limiting the HP but allowing everything else.

Michael O.

BMW E30 325i
GTS1/KP/ITS
GTS1 National Champ
OH/IN GTS1 Regional Champ