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I had to leave the track immediately following the IFU2 race to prepare for my sons HS graduation. I was one of the four spec e30 racers DQ’ed for making an error in judgment after passing the 9th turn flag station and racing to the finish. I understand there were several spec zoomers that did the same thing. I knew when I did it that I would be a hero or a zero.
Someone please clue me in on the discussion that followed Sunday morning.
Steve, my understanding from the racer’s meeting (to parapharse):
Acknowledged that the double yellows were hard to see, addressed with the track mgmt.
Other ways to determine if we were under green flag conditions (ie waving green flag, lack of pace car, etc).
Result - tough luck.
The absence of a yellow flag at the next flag station is a green flag condition. It just so happens the next flag station was the S/F line. The Flagman should have waved single yellow and checkered. I am told the double yellow was held up against the side of the building but who could possibly see that against a yellow RR banner? If five people thought the same thing, something was wrong with the flag display IMO.
Coming out of 9 you could not see the double yellow as displayed, it was the same way the lap before…I wondered if the waving flag was a waving white with one to go, I did not pass anyone but was close. I would say the double yellow was not displayed properly and we are lucky nobody got hit…I had a Miata come by me right against the wall…
Al
It was an interesting conversation on this issue. A number of responsible adults did not see the flags. Common sense would indicate that if only 1 guy misses the flag, it’s his fault. But if a bunch of guys miss the flag, it’s the flagger’s fault.
It seemed to me that the final determination was that a bunch of guys missed the flag and it was their fault. Interesting how that worked.
Call me crazy but there seems to be tension between track management and the drivers. They are always right and we are always wrong. I didn’t realize that we were such a bunch of shitheads.
They should’ve done what they did, just better. The double yellow was displayed, but it was in front of the stand, not out to the side where it could be seen from far back. If the yellow was pulled from T9, that was the real mistake. A waving yellow at S/F would not have solved it unless there was also a double yellow.
mskeen wrote:
Ok, but didn’t you get the sense that it was presented to us as “you guys were wrong” as opposed to “there might have been some confusion”? When a number of guys don’t respond to a flag, there should be an automatic assumption that maybe, just maybe the flag was insufficiently visible.
It just seems like folks are awful quick to call us the shithead. If track management wants to assume that you are always in the wrong, just tell them that you’re flattered, but you are already married.
My take is that since many of us (me included) couldn’t see the double-yellow at S/F, they were not properly displayed.
However, we still screwed up, even if we couldn’t see the double yellows, because I thought that the only way to resume racing following a double yellow is to pass S/F with a green. There was all kind of circumstantial evidence (T1 incident cleaned up, field accelerating, etc.) that made us all THINK it was going green, but since we got the checker/white instead of the expected green, we still screwed up.
So, I’d say the flags that were presented were not visible to us, but given that we could see the checker/white we still screwed up by passing.
So, heads they win, tails we lose. We messed up, and that’s the bottom line.
I was the dumbest of all because I was many laps down and traded a potential 50% of lowest finisher points for a DQ! Whoever I passed, wasn’t for position, so it was truly lame!
Chuck, It wasn’t checker/white. It was only the checkered flag from my windshield. Steven and Carlton want to comment?
Gasman wrote:
[quote]Chuck, It wasn’t checker/white. It was only the checkered flag from my windshield. Steven and Carlton want to comment?[/quote]From my vantage point, after I saw flags waving (and assuming at least one of them was green) I started racing, (I was literally DFL car on the track) passed 2 cars then saw waving checker/white. Never did see the double yellow
Someone has to have video…I asked one of the linemen to start my camera but it wasn’t turned on. Nothing would please me more than to be vidicated. This is a 3 point problem for all of us with a DQ.
I was about to jump too because I figured that the standing double yellow must have been pulled in just after I passed T9, but just then I saw the yellows in front of the blue area on the tower (brilliant place to hold such important flags:( ) - and about that same second I heard and saw Gasman blow past me, and I thought “opps”.
Sorry to see it happen Steve. It was very difficult to see the flags for many reasons including my crappy windshield, but I guess it is mostly our responsibility to be sure of those things - but then again, what the hell do I know? :blink:
Tom, Ironically, you don’t remember passing me under double yellow without consequence in the last lap of the same race last year…do you?
I was confused by the S/F flags as well and like many others thought they were going to give us a green white checker to the end. Fortunately I figured correct “if unsure - assume still yellow” and did not gas and go.
Don
Gasman wrote:
No, I just had something in my eye while I was typing…
See, there it goes again!:lol:
Guys (and Laura),
As a driver, I agree that the flags were hard to see, especially with the sun in our eyes, I almost pulled out to pass as well, but I knew that T9 had double yellows and I also knew that unless I was sure that S/F didn’t have yellows I had better be careful about jumping out to pass (and trust me I was stuck behind a slow spec-miotter looking for any chance to get by).
In a letter that I mention in another thread, we are also recommending to the track owners that S/F and a couple of the other corner stands have issues with flag placement and the color that the stands are painted. I almost passed in the carousel once myself this past weekend because of standing yellow in front of the “white board” on that station.
I agree that the flags were hard to see, I probably have a harder time than most as I am colorblind, I even failed that part of the FAA physical for my pilot’s license, so I always have to see the flags and if there isn’t enough contrast between the flag and it’s surroundings then I have use other visual cues to determine what color they are.
My advice is that unless you are absolutely sure about the flags, do not pass*…
*then you can smile when you pass the flag station and realize that the car that just passed you will be DQ’d
Ranger wrote:
[quote]It was an interesting conversation on this issue. A number of responsible adults did not see the flags. Common sense would indicate that if only 1 guy misses the flag, it’s his fault. But if a bunch of guys miss the flag, it’s the flagger’s fault.
It seemed to me that the final determination was that a bunch of guys missed the flag and it was their fault.quote]
This argument would hold alot more water if it was 7 out of 8 racers. But in this case I think some 21 other racers DID NOT make the mistake, so this argument is not very strong reasoning.
ctbimmer wrote:
you don’t have to pass S/F (with a green) to start racing at a restart (or start)…when the green flies at S/F (yellows are pulled in everywhere else) it’s go time regardless of where you are on track…
20.13.1 Full Course Yellow / Pace Car Procedures.
During a Full Course Yellow, in the absence of a Pace Car anywhere on course (or after the Pace Car has pulled off the marked course), the lead car will pace (meaning steady speed) the field. Each competitor may resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag. The presenting of a green flag is not a necessity to resume [Ref:(20.13)] a practice or qualifying.