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Howdy all,
I have been seriously considering building a convertible E30 - simply because they are plentiful and I want to be able to get out of the car quickly in the event of a fire… I’d be more than happy to penalize the convertibles with 50 lbs more minimum weight if needed but I think they would be safer to get out of when in a crisis.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veIQVUoKLck&feature=youtu.be[/video]
Tell me what you think…
It might be safer in a fire (provided you exit through the top of the car which I think would be pretty difficult) but how about something like this: http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f223/crash-mid-ohio-scca-t2-nissan-61500/
Also, as far as I know convertibles are not allowed (other than the one that’s grandfathered in) so I’m not sure why you’re giving serious thought to building one since you wouldn’t be able to race it.
I have to admit that convertible at nationals looked cool though.
Getting out through the top is actually very easy. Depending on the type of head restraint seat, Im sure I can do either out the door or out the top in the same time.
I personally think it should be revisited because there is absolutely no difference besides the looks. Coupes are getting expensive. More options for donor cars make for bigger fields. I can tell you the vert has a big disadvantage being out of a draft on that Mid Ohio back straight though.
Come on now Charlie…You know very well what the advantages of the convertable are. For the record, looks are NOT the only difference.
I have an iC race car…built a few years ago but unfortunately I never ran it in Spec e30 because currently has a 2.4 turbo diesel installed…I always intended to run it in spec but so it goes…I think the added weight low in the car is it’s advantage and overall I think it is a little stiffer platform than the coupe. I have been running the factory hardtop on it for land speed record runs as that helps the aero. Maybe I will pull the drivetrain, install a 2.5i and bring it to Oktoberfast and try to run spec e30F or just run and let someone protest…would be easier for me to get that car ready than anything else I have laying around…
Al
I currently also race a Thunder Roadster and used to race a Lotus 7 that had a v8 in it. A convertible would not have made a difference in that crash with the required safety gear for a 'vert. With the cage structure and assorted safety gear required for open top cars I still feel safer than in a hardtop.
I can build it and race it in GTS but then there would be one less racer in SpecE30…
From the bitching I’ve seen (and Charlie, too, I believe) about the minor differences between Spec Miatas, I would strongly caution against allowing convertibles in SE30.
IMHO, convertibles would get their clocks cleaned at Miller due to aero penalty. The should do well (even with +50 lbs) at MidOhio due to low CG.
Showing up with both to test that hypothesis would be so non-SE30… :woohoo:
Personally, I think if you put Charlie in a street sweeper (hard top or convertible, your choice) and start him in the back, he’d still pass at least half the field! And that’s before he remembered to bring the brushes up!!
I am not hatin’ on ya Charlie as I think you are a great driver. I just know the advantages of that chassis alone as I have seen two front clips side by side. And the lack of weight at the car’s tallest point doesn’t hurt either.
DIdn’t mean to start a big deal. Just saying my two cents after driving 5 of these cars and the convertible being one of them. The sound of the wind is the only difference after you get out of the 2700lb slush box. We obviously built it when the rules were legal to see if it was better. Well it wasn’t anything special, just the same ol’ thing.
It appears that the past 2 years at the Nationals the TFB vert becomes a topic of conversation as this car is a consistent front runner. Because the mid west/east coast guys don’t have the opportunity to race multiple times per year against this vert, all kinds of performance controversy follows.
In theory, the verts have some advantage but ladies & gents, lets talk about racing period…For the past 2 season I have raced against the black TFB car, whether it was hotshoe charlie Hayes, Loren T or for that matter self proclaimed masters hotshoe Dave Lang driving…Bottom line, sometimes this car wins & sometimes it doesn’t. On any given day, there is NO performance advantage this car has on track…The top front running NorCal guys battle with this car every month…If it really had an unfair advantage it would standing on the top step of the podium consistently, check the results for yourself…It’s not…There are many elements to winning & the vert vs no vert doesn’t trump all.
Now, ya’ll shut up, make sure your car is prepped & go drive.
SteveO…ya know I love ya and have a world of respect for you and your skills, but allow me to toss this out. That car ran top 3 all race at the CA crown and took 2nd at nationals. During a mid-season race, he ran in front of the SoCal 2011 Champion, who I consider a top notch driver, and beat him. When we Dyno’d the car, his numbers were in the mid 140’s if I recall correctly.
Now I could be very wrong, and often are if you ask my wife, but you don’t need to be a rocket scientist (no offense Rius) to know something is going on beyond the driver. For example, I know from racing with you that you are an EXCELLENT technician behind the wheel. That being said, how did you finish in the CA crown with your car pulling 160 & 157-8 #'s?
Now I am not bashing or hating on Charlie. In fact, I think he is a very talented driver and probably worth 6-7hp when at the helm; made props to the lad. In fact, in an earlier posting I wrote: “Personally, I think if you put Charlie in a street sweeper (hard top or convertible, your choice) and start him in the back, he’d still pass at least half the field! And that’s before he remembered to bring the brushes up!!” I just think on a more technical and/or shorter straight away course, the lower center of gravity and stiffer frame rails give that car a slight advantage that, when streched out over the course of an entire race, yields more positive results.
Either way, you make an excellent point in that people need to do just want you say and I have been trying to learn…prep your car the best you can, then SUAD.
Let’s see who figures that one out.
Great Pumpkin,
Could it be that the vert had a fresh motor being shaken down at the Ca.Crown & not the 140hp motor dyno’d at Cal Speedway?
As for my excuse at the Crown, I simply was not running at 100%, I was leaving time over phil hill & time at Riverside. Also, it seemed like my car just wasn’t there in the first few laps of each race (probably tire pressures) to keep pace, but after a few laps my pace was pretty much the same as the front 3 & they really didn’t open a huge gap over the remainder race distance. Also, I don’t run an X-Brace on my car…probably could stiffen chassis up a bit more if done.??
OK, so 2 equal drivers on the same day, both driving 100% with no distractions of any kind. Equally prepped cars…Which one is faster?
Ask me about my Friday test day at BW with arguably the best prepped,nicest,strongest, legal car on the West Coast…Not the results I had secretly hoped for…I’m going to bet driver is the difference.
You sir, are a wise man.
I truly haven’t cracked any code and I think I have made it clear that I take NOTHING away from Charlie’s ability behind the wheel. That being said, I really do wonder if the two are the same. Logic suggests otherwise, but perhaps a very well prep’d coupe could make a case for itself if the motors are the same.
I guess we shall never really know…kind of like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a toosie pop; know what I mean? =;^)
If there was no advantage to the vert than why would TFB bring it to Nationals with their front running drivers the past two years.
I really do not care one way or the other, I’m just sayin’
Scott
Scott,
Have to ask Timmy on that one…However, I think the new guy (sorry forgot his name) call it the green banner car was sold. So only 2 cars in the stable. I know anyone could have purchased the vert from TFB the past 2-3 months, I even posted on the forum when someone was asking about cars for sale…Anyone with a checkbook could have taken advantage of this so called unfair advantage.
Verts are cool, tourings are cool; you can’t argue with center of gravity, but ultimately, the economics of vert shells, combined with the appearance/show of diversity within the class, are too attractive to ignore. Should we start a poll? Is the issue too complex to even risk a resolution? Do we need race car engineering seminars from Caltech, MIT, and Ga Tech to each provide calculated performance-balancing ballast estimates with detailed explanation?
Highly incendiary straw man proposal for rulebook:
verts +25 lbs
tourings -15 lbs
Diving boards -5 lbs
And of course, all current verts still grandfathered.
(subject to change at any time based on findings of commissioned engineering teams)
Steve,
I do not think that the vert has a “so called unfair advantage” I just think that there is something there other wise Tim would have brought the sedan and left the vert at home!
Scott
I decided to drive the vert because it stirs the pot and to be honest no one wants to drive it. False sense of safety with a tin roof? I would have taken the 10 car, if it didn’t have Loren T.s engine in it because I am not in the market for a built .020 over motor if anything went wrong. I had the choice and I took the one that needed no work and it already matched my other car. 
How about every racer who has a problem with the vert put their money in a pot, buy the car, strip it of its mechanicals, and have the car crushed?
Just sayin… While there is a difference that I think would be most advantageous at a track like Mid-Ohio, there are also disadvantages that may make it less desirable at other tracks. Pick your poison. Personally, I wouldn’t put out my own money to make that car go away. I do agree with the current rule to not allow any more, as it is not in the spirit of “spec”. It IS in the spirit of crafty racecar building, though! I feel the same about splitters, fwiw.
If we want to write a rule that would disallow the vert after some date in the future, there should be some fund to buy that shell out from TFB. (Maybe a fund to buy out my splitter, too? Can I get my $25 back? Lol). 