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Reading my first post, I find nothing offensive. I find something offensive in almost every single response thereafter.
I have the right, even as a newcomer, to defend myself against sarcastic and patronizing remarks.
The only personal attack I made was (in jest) about Al. And he considers being cheap his trademark so it was obviously in jest.
Will be the last time I recommend Spec E30 to students, some of which run with you now.
hope you’ll reconsider, this thread did flare up pretty quickly but it’s not the norm around here. Not sure where RMPilot is coming from given it’s only his second post… (and I don’t know who he is)
cheers,
bruce
Exige96 wrote:
[quote]Reading my first post, I find nothing offensive. I find something offensive in almost every single response thereafter.
I have the right, even as a newcomer, to defend myself against sarcastic and patronizing remarks.
The only personal attack I made was (in jest) about Al. And he considers being cheap his trademark so it was obviously in jest.
Will be the last time I recommend Spec E30 to students, some of which run with you now.[/quote]Mike, This thread is NOT representative of the community. Please reconsider the sources of the remarks that are less than appropriate before you make a judgment.
Exige96 wrote:
Now that honestly was a little childish. there is no denying the great racing and the great guys and gal in this series. I really hope you aren’t going to steer students away from Spec e30 because your idea was shot down and your feelings got hurt. If so that is pretty sad.
I have to admit that I have read this thread and cringed at the thought that our close knit, civilized, and gentleman like internet community may be growing into what I dislike most about internet forums. While this board may not be as active as some others, the thing I have enjoyed the most is the polite, respectful, and helpful responses of the posters here. Up until this particular thread I have never in the past 1 1/2 years seen this type of post on the SE30 message board. Hopefully this is not a trend we have to look forward to. If so I’ll move on to another play ground.
The original poster deserves respect regardless if you agree or disagree with his idea and regardless if he is a new board member or the founder of the SE30 site.
That’s all I have to say about that!
Mike, to me your idea sounds eerily similar to insurance, which I belive Mr. Hall can talk to at length. I think the system in place to obtain and retain a competition license to be adequate. It pretty much keeps Mr. Patton’s "Goobers" off the race track. I’ve seen nothing but good clean racing in the short time I’ve been associated with NASA and Spec E30 and recommend it without reservation. Hope to see you in the classroom again at Rockingham in June. Bob C.
I’m not going to get into the soap opera part of this thread.
I would however like to say that I don’t think it’s a good idea, and I’m one of the "shoe string budget" guys.
JP
PS - RM is obviously a troll.
Exige, no offense but the "insurance fund" sounds like a license to be stupid. Paying for your mistakes could possibly make one drive more responsibly. Your intentions were good but it wasn’t well thought out. Al, your discription "Government program" was PERFECT! Pretty darn funny. 
screwynewy wrote:
I couldn’t find the better way to express same sentiment, hence I am quoting Ken above. It must be a sign that we are getting bigger and more visible - I can’t remember this type of a "tone" in any thread going back to when we were on Yahoo Groups.
Mike,
gee thanks for stirring the pot 
- and since on internet forums it’s hard to judge voice/tone let me say that I am kidding and being sarcastic. Actually I think that is part of the issue in later part of this thread - not being able to fully gauge intent behind words from established and respected members. "RMpilot" 's comment is , IMO, entierly out of line and NOT representative of the SpecE30 community . Actually, again IMO, he/she is not part of this community as join date on the profile is 2 days ago and he/she has total of 2 posts (both which are out of line).
Add to this mess a sarcastic (?) remark from Mike ( a new comer who most people don’t know) directed towards Al ( a standing member of community) and it’s easy to see how other members of the group wouldn’t take too kindly to the ‘pot-shot’ (spl?).
If this comment came from someone else within community, I don’t think the (defensive) reaction would be the same. Again, most of us don’t know you Mike, nor had any idea that you actually met Al in person…
It would be a shame if sole opinion (by Mike or anyone else) about SpecE30 community get’s formed based on this thread alone ( - especially based on offensive comment directed from someone who is not part of the group; you can see RMpilot’s profile here
BTW, nice plane (no sarcasm here, I just like airplanes).
Regards,
Igor
I have to throw in my 2 cents. I cannot think of any good reason to buy into the "insurance idea" My first thought was take $250 per year x 30 offical E30 racers. (I think that number is high-a guessimate) We get $7500 per year. hmmm I think one race would wipe out the fund. 2nd- Administrating the fund would be a nightmare determining who deserves what through another complex set of rules. Racers, including those wanting to race are handed down the tradition that "you are responsible for any costs to repair your car regardless of who or what caused the damage" We knowingly take that chance. Yep sounds like government. Guess you can count my vote as a ney for the insurance fund.
I have had thoughts similar to Mike’s, but ultimately dismissed them because I agree that the administration of such a policy would get too cumbersome.
I’ll be the first to say, though, that I think there is some logic in making avoidable contact hurt someone in the pocket book. Taking money from the guilty is perhaps the most serious deterrant I can imagine. It need not even be much–say $50. It adds insult to injury (a suspension). The money could be given to a charity or whatever. In other words, we don’t need to make use of it within SpecE30.
The reason fining people appeals to me is that many of us don’t run every race (I cannot afford to). If I were to hit someone and be suspended, it may not really be a big deal to me. It would probably not impact my plans at all since I don’t sign up for every event. Plus, I’m so slow I’m not in the points race anyway. This is not to imply that I want to be reckless, just that the punitive structure currently in place may not be a significant penalty to me or others who are running.
Sasha
Wow…first I have to say I am shocked at the tone. That is not the spec e30 I know at all.
I want mike to know I have been around this since before the first race ever turned a wheel and have never seen anything like that.
Second, while I think Mikes idea is a noble idea, I am not sure it would work. This coming from an "insurance guy".
Admin would be very difficult and claims almost impossible to handle. Some will want a shop to do the work some will do there own salvage, some buy new parts some buy salvage etc etc.
I also think you may see some adverse selection. Those without the skills or the money are likely to contribute and those with skills and money will not.
As noted before it may increase risk taking behavior, by decreasing the perceived cost of the behavior
It might be better to have a flat "shit happens" that pays a flat fee of $x if $y amount occurs. That would help, but not be difficult to administer.
For example if the car get more than $2000 of damage the fund pays out a flat $500.00.
By looking at past incidents you might be able to determine what threshold to set the trigger (severity) and how often that type of damage occurs (frequency) then you could estimate what the total amount per year would likely to be needed and set a fee.
I think you might have to exclude wet races…
That being said…my personal philosophy for any track vehicle is don’t put on the track what you can’t afford to walk away from…because you just might have to.
Ric
PS I’ll swap a Chesapeake bay sailboat cruise for a stunt plane ride anytime!!!
Ex36 wrote:
[quote]I have had thoughts similar to Mike’s, but ultimately dismissed them because I agree that the administration of such a policy would get too cumbersome.
I’ll be the first to say, though, that I think there is some logic in making avoidable contact hurt someone in the pocket book. Taking money from the guilty is perhaps the most serious deterrant I can imagine. It need not even be much–say $50. It adds insult to injury (a suspension). The money could be given to a charity or whatever. In other words, we don’t need to make use of it within SpecE30.
The reason fining people appeals to me is that many of us don’t run every race (I cannot afford to). If I were to hit someone and be suspended, it may not really be a big deal to me. It would probably not impact my plans at all since I don’t sign up for every event. Plus, I’m so slow I’m not in the points race anyway. This is not to imply that I want to be reckless, just that the punitive structure currently in place may not be a significant penalty to me or others who are running.
Sasha[/quote]The NASA CCR provides a mechanism to leyv fines. Jim Politi would be the man to ask about that.
I didn’t read any of the replies as overly sarcastic, but more "practical".
I’ve been at it for 8 years now and have only had two incidents, one car to tire wall with my 911 in the rain and one competitor locking up and drilling me in the p-door. He didn’t offer to pay for the damage but after he hit me, someone hit him and his car was ultimately totals so I did ask for his clear p-door to replace mine.
There are many issues like, if you make it voluntary (for those guys who don’t come often and don’t want to chip in), you likely won’t have a pot of $$ to use. If the 15 or so regulars do chip in, that’s $5k, pot could easily be used up in a few incidents, what do you say to the guy who chipped in at the beginning of the season but get’s hit at the last weekend when there’s no money left?
I’m with the other guys, if the car get’s totaled, I’m likely on the sidelines for a bit.
The problem with these philosophically-good ideas is all in the administration. Once you think through all of the administration and fairness issues, you are back to asking "why are we doing this again???".
Another "insurance guy" adds his two cents. A good "idea" but way to difficult to admin. As many have pointed out, one guy wants the cost of parts, the next wants a "professional" to do the work and the third wants his Spec E30 to end up as a ALMS car.
Use the same thinking you used when you got your first trailer to pull a car to the track, these are "extra" vehicles to your daily use. If it breaks and you can’t afford to fix it, park it til you can or sell it for whatever.
I’ve been in insurance for way too long and I tell folks it’s a bad system, but the only one we have to work with.
Let’s avoid the idea for the track.
My feeling is, if I don’t wanna wreck, I’ll give the other guy ALOT of room and that may not even do it.
It is nice to see that the members of this board are thinking and sharing ideas. As for the one really bad jerk, we knew SpecE30 would catch on in Cali at some point! HEY, I’m just kidding!!!
Mike, how can you take such an extreme position from the responses you received (outside the obvious one)? You posted a bold suggestion and should expect some polarized responses. In fact you churned up good back and forth which you should be happy with. I posted, you posted back and I responded with thought and effort which shows respect to your idea which many of the other posters did as well. Not having immediate and total concurrance with your idea or sarcasim (which is somewhere in almost every topic here) is what a "discussion forum" is about. If you are an active NASA MA instructor it means a couple of things. First you represent NASA and taking a public stance to your students over this is way over the top. Second, it means we have met and spoke to one another and I don’t recall any instructors I did not feel good about running on the track with meaning you are likely a pretty good guy in my eyes. Just don’t want to see you take this all so harshly (again outside of the one knuckle dragger response).
Matt
Thanks to the posters that made reasonable replies. Especially Sean.
I believe this thread should just be deleted by the moderators.
Apparently my idea was stupid (even though I considered every single aspect that people brought up). And when I read back over the thread, it makes us all look like idiots, with me in the pole position.
I have been a staunch advocate of people learning to drive with a Spec E30 or suitable donor car. I have promoted the car and the series in other forums. From all the negativism of this entire thread, obviously some of you thought I was going to bash Spec E30. Didn’t say that, just don’t think I will be a cheerleader for awhile.
My apologies to those whom I have offended. I will go back to lurking and stay out of everyone’s way on the forum and at the track.
Mike, I would be very disappointed if this thread stopped you from posting. Throwing an idea out there is what all this stuff should be about. Hope to see something from you again soon.
Best,
Matt
Mike, I would be very disappointed if this thread stopped you from posting. Throwing an idea out there is what all this stuff should be about. Hope to see something from you again soon.
Best,
Matt
While I guess this thread should die, I will keep it going for at least one more post. Mike, sorry for the flip responce, but I have some experience in govt programs…good ideas that when put in practise become buraucratic/administrative quagmires. Dont let us keep you from posting ideas, but keep in mind most folks are here in spec e30 cause it is a simple, uncomplicated series with a benelovent dictator. As far as my being cheap and having a disposible race car, that is the perception of a few folks, and I do play it up. I am an anarcist/bohemian/hippy and have different priorities than a lot of folks. Spending time down in Katrina land will make you realize that our race cars are all junk waiting to happen.
One thing you may want to look into if you havent is Storage/paddock/transit insurance, I have mine thru Parrish Heacock on 3 of my race cars and it is $250 a year for $10k coverage, does not include any on track but offers some peace of mind.
Al