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Ranger (Scott) and I have been in the middle of a discussion over on BF.c. It started in a do you heal toe or not thread, where I replied that I press the clutch in with the brake in hard straight braking zones where 2 down shifts are required, like 10a at RA to slow the car quicker, and allows me to skip a shift easier.
Any thoughts?
Use a Traqmate to see if it’s quicker.
You know I saw a woman with no hands drive a car using her feet.
Do whatever works best for you.
csrow wrote:
You know I saw a woman with no hands drive a car using her feet.
[/quote]
Thats nothing, I saw someone driving with no brain. 
Gasman wrote:
[quote]csrow wrote:
You know I saw a woman with no hands drive a car using her feet.
[/quote]
Thats nothing, I saw someone driving with no brain. ;)[/quote]
Everyday!
87isMan wrote:
[quote]Ranger (Scott) and I have been in the middle of a discussion over on BF.c.
Any thoughts?[/quote]
that thread rocks…LOL!!
dmwhite wrote:
[quote]87isMan wrote:
[quote]Ranger (Scott) and I have been in the middle of a discussion over on BF.c.
Any thoughts?[/quote]
that thread rocks…LOL!![/quote]
I’m glad you are enjoying it:(
Greg -
It is an mildly interesting thread on bf.c from a theoretical debate perspective. Kind of like how many angels you can fit on a pin head. No, I’m not calling anyone a pin head.
Here’s my experience: Consistency pays huge dividends. I try to hit my marks on every out lap, cool down lap, yellow lap, etc. In that same vein, I find that braking/downshifting consistency means I do the same thing in all corners that require a shift. Less thinking, which is good for me.
Short answer - my car is in gear unless I am changing gears. Works for corners where a light brush is all that’s required, works for stand-on-it corners like 10A.
Besides, if I don’t do a quick clutch in-blip-clutch out, I can’t match the revs as well, the car gets unsettled and I have just wasted any infinitessimally small amount of ‘better braking’ that MAY exist with the clutch dipped.
YMMV, IMHO, don’t try this at home, etc.
Steve D.
PS - I still mash the gas pedal with my right foot some times by accident, so take this opinion for what it is worth.
PPS - The real trick to these cars is learning how to use the brakes less, not how to win a braking duel into 10A. If you learn the first part, they’r enot close enough for that second part to matter.
I agree with Steve, consitency is key and what you are most comfortable with. Also the key to braking is your corner entry speed, braking at the last second is not necessarily the best option. Obviously if you are braking way too early that is another problem but it is much better to make sure you set your entry speed as high as possible and if that means braking just a fraction earlier to make sure you do it consitently then you should do that. Alternatively try braking a little earlier with less braking pressure especially before an entry to high speed corners where staying smooth with less weight transfer is important. If you have a traqmate get some data from Skeen and compare.
Above two points are the key to being faster; not if the clutch is in or not or which pad has 5% more gripping power.
So I have heard…I’m just a DE guy.
csrow wrote:
[quote]
So I have heard…I’m just a DE guy.[/quote]
Chi is being modest. I’ve only run with him at Roebling, but he’s fearsome there.
If you are threshold braking, disengaging the clutch will not slow you down any more because the tires only have so much traction. If you are not using all of that available traction, use the brakes more, don’t disengage the clutch.
Here’s an interesting BF.c response from a guy that is apparently well respected:
--------From BF.c--------
This was my response from Dan and his explanation of the clutch in while braking technique:
"The rotating momentum of the engine will always push the car forward, the back pressure from the engine is only useful in the first seconds of the downshift, and still not as effective as disconnecting the rotating mass from the equation. Proof is in your discovery at VIR… brake later, slows faster. And you won’t burn through the clutch as quickly since you’re eliminating the most damaging action (no matter how talented one might be in the HnT technique).
This came from the school in Germany, conducted by the BMW team, on track at the 'Ring. And, you will find many racers who have practiced this for years.
As long as I see the positive results and hear of others witnessing the same, I will suggest that the main resistance to this is breaking a habit that took so long for us to perfect. Like “fast in fast out” (the European ‘way’), the Americans have been most resistant to anything that is different. Many of the guys say they want access to the right gear should they need to avoid something/change direction suddenly… but by having the clutch in and having the time to see about you and decide which gear to use to escape, you just need to match revs and select.
More time with both hands on the wheel
No accelerative action coming from the rotating engine
No clutch wear
Better and later braking (brakes last longer and over heat less, too)
More time to select an escape gear/path…
… tell me a better technique to learn?"
C. Dan Unkefer
With my footwork, I’m just looking to minimize my number of shifts.
Very comforting for me to hear that clutch in and skipping a gear under braking is thought of as good practice by some experts.
Fyi, the new 370Z manual tranny has an automatic throttle blip on downshifts. As if heel-n-toe was not becoming arcane/esoteric at a fast enough rate.
Ranger wrote:
[quote]"… brake later, slows faster."
snip
“And you won’t burn through the clutch as quickly since you’re eliminating the most damaging action…”
snip
"Better and later braking (brakes last longer and over heat less, too)"
C. Dan Unkefer[/quote]
I think it is safe to say that both sides have merit. I don’t know Mr. Unkefer, but I would offer the following thoughts.
Not all techniques apply equally well to all cars. My main goal is preserving the momentum of my brick. Slowing faster doesn’t matter to me. Except in a side-by-side duel, if I brake 25 yards earlier than you with slightly less pressure and that slower rate of decel allows me to judge the brake release point better so I don’t scrub 0.2 seconds in that corner, I just picked up huge time.
If you are in a high horsepower car carrying significantly more speed (and less dependent on the influence of cornering speeds on lap time), the described “clutch in” may work. But again, focusing on squeezing out that last 0.001% of braking force is missing the point IMO. You are doing that at maybe a couple turns at the typical road course I run.
I absolutely don’t care about clutch wear in this context. Seriously. Are you going to tell me that in a class with frequent standing starts you think learning a 5-3 downshift is the clutch wear you should be concerned about?
Lastly, I would argue “better and later” can be mutually exclusive in braking for our cars.
Steve D.
Steve D wrote:
Lastly, I would argue “better and later” can be mutually exclusive in braking for our cars.
Steve D.[/quote]
That’s what my Traqmate generally tells me too. Smoother, earlier, back on the throttle earlier, means faster corner speeds. Although I have not tried to measure the difference between clutch in and clutch out. Interesting discussion, I think I’ll try to test this on Friday.