 |
|
I’m reading the rules regarding gauges/interior and I was wondering if I can remove the stock cluster and replace it with a Stack or IQ3? I am starting with an ETA car, so I would have to replace the cluster then add gauges. For the same price of that; I can just go with an IQ3.
Any ideas?
bavarian3 wrote:
[quote]I’m reading the rules regarding gauges/interior and I was wondering if I can remove the stock cluster and replace it with a Stack or IQ3? I am starting with an ETA car, so I would have to replace the cluster then add gauges. For the same price of that; I can just go with an IQ3.
Any ideas?[/quote]
I have an IQ3 in my M3 that I am selling and thinking of taking it out, if interested let me know…
bavarian3 wrote:
[quote]Doh…
http://spece30.com/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,86/func,view/id,23837/catid,3/[/quote]
At the end of that link is a post from me saying the rules don’t say what we think they say. And it’s still true. The interior removal paragraph clearly states that we can remove the entire interior, except for the brake light. English is a precision instrument, except for gun control types.
I have no dog in this fight, really. But we really should correct that paragraph so it says what we want it to say.
leggwork wrote:
[quote]I have pointed this wording issue out to Carter during the annual rule revisions, but he interprets it as a list of items that can be removed.
bruce
Ranger wrote:
[quote]Let me be the devil’s advocate for a moment. 9.3.13.22 says “The interior, including… may be removed.”
The sentance is not written to specify that removal is limited to . Consider the difference between the two following sentences:
The steering wheel assembly, including the airbag, can be removed.
The steering wheel assembly, strictly defined as the wheel itself and excluding all other devices and housings, can be removed.
We seem to be interpreting the interior removal paragraph like the latter example, but it’s written like the former.
It goes without saying that there are other, more restrictive paragraphs, that deal with various interior specifics. And I’m not suggesting that a general paragraph in any way trumps one of the specific paragraphs.
The bottom line is that the interior paragraph just gives us a list of suggested things to remove. What the paragraph does not do is limit what interior things can be removed.
If we want 9.3.12.22 to limit what can be removed, we should ask Carter to change the wording. Personally, I’ve no dog in this fight. I’m not itching to drop weight by removing anything from my interior. I’ll kick your ass by taking the tower shortcut.[/quote][/quote]
9.3.13.22. The interior, including carpeting, seats, headliner (to include the leading plastic
panel), console, radio/cd/cassette/navigation/trip computer systems, OEM seat belts,
speakers, glove box door, panels under the dash, grab handles, driver and passenger
door (front and rear) window glass and mechanisms, heating and cooling system interior
ducts, rear passenger compartment trim panels (side panels and fabric package shelf)
and sun visors, may be removed. The third brake light shall remain in place and a
custom bracket may be used to secure it to the steel package shelf.
Perhaps the problem is that the rules begin with "The interior…including"
What defines the interior?
The cluster does not weigh anything; the point is for people who want a clean install of gauge panel can put it there.
I think that is always a problem when we have rules… it’s how we understand them (or for the most cases interpret them, which causes chaos).
I just don’t want to be out there with an illegal cluster… which is somewhat a funny thing to say.
EDIT:
If we look at:
9.3.13.14. Water temperature, oil temperature, fuel pressure, oil pressure, exhaust
temperature, engine RPM speed (tachometer), and mixture gauges are permitted, but
shall be securely mounted and may perform no secondary function.
Perhaps one could interpret the above as some of those gauges are already on the stock cluster; which then by adding a second gauge of the same thing perform as a secondary function?
You will not pass tech without the cluster. The sooner you become adjusted to the idea, the less aggravation you’ll cause yourself.
The CCR’s interior paragraph needs work, but there’s no ambiguity in Carter’s response. The CCR is a living document and there is a mechanism to get CCR clarifications.
Change requires compelling reason. It will be an uphill fight trying to argue that there is compelling reason for clusters and gauges to be open.
You’re going to hate me but what defines the cluster? The cluster with all the gauges; or the body it self?
The only reason I have for removing the stock cluster is: I am starting with a 325e. I need to replace the cluster with a 325is model; then add additional gauges; by the time I am done; I can have everything I need with an IQ3 non-datalogger. Not stating that my reason should be accepted.
bavarian3 wrote:
[quote]If we look at:
9.3.13.14. Water temperature, oil temperature, fuel pressure, oil pressure, exhaust
temperature, engine RPM speed (tachometer), and mixture gauges are permitted, but
shall be securely mounted and may perform no secondary function.
Perhaps one could interpret the above as some of those gauges are already on the stock cluster; which then by adding a second gauge of the same thing perform as a secondary function?[/quote]
The nice thing about rules (or standards) is that there are many ways they can be interpreted…
I think that “no secondary function” above is intended to limit those items to their primary function and not be a means of altering engine operation. With respect to replacement of the cluster with an IQ3, Pista, etc., there is a collision between 9.3.13.14 and the “if it doesn’t say you can, then you can’t” rule. This rule clearly allows installation of a gauge set that duplicates what the stock cluster provides, but nowhere in the rules is there a clause that explicitly allows the removal of the cluster.
I personally would love to replace the cluster with an IQ3. Having shift lights, accurate gas, oil, and temp gauges with programmable warning lights, and GPS track mapping in one package would be really nice.
Probably because of this question coming up, it’s only a matter of time before the rules now include language requiring the stock cluster and dash to be retained. If I were Bavarian3, that would be all the more reason to leave it in even if “temporarily” inoperable 
you don’t want to remove it, have the rules be refined, and have to add it back in later, and it’s unlikely that the rules are going to be changed to allow removal.
In my car I have my 5" tach and Traqmate sitting in front of the cluster mounted to the steering column, and added gauges in the top center vent location for OP, OT, and WT. Pretty much blocks my cluster anyway.
155MPH wrote:
I have to be difficult…
and to be honest; if I went with a Stack dash (which is quite larger than the IQ3) it would look quite horrible.
That looks cleaner… mounting in front of the cluster would look like a hack job. If I have to mount in front of the cluster than that is what will happen. Just want a solid yes or no. B)
bavarian3 wrote:
[quote]155MPH wrote:
I have to be difficult…
and to be honest; if I went with a Stack dash (which is quite larger than the IQ3) it would look quite horrible.
That looks cleaner… mounting in front of the cluster would look like a hack job. If I have to mount in front of the cluster than that is what will happen. Just want a solid yes or no. B)[/quote]
No.
bavarian3 wrote:
Is that true? Other than redline on the tach, what’s the difference?
Steve D.
Steve D wrote:
[quote]bavarian3 wrote:
Is that true? Other than redline on the tach, what’s the difference?
Steve D.[/quote]
155MPH wrote:
Both correct. That’s not the point though. :silly:
bavarian3 wrote:
[quote]Steve D wrote:
[quote]bavarian3 wrote:
Is that true? Other than redline on the tach, what’s the difference?
Steve D.[/quote]
155MPH wrote:
Both correct. That’s not the point though. :silly:[/quote]
Really? Not to put words in your mouth, but here’s your original post.
If you want to argue pointlessly, give fair warning that you are just trying to kill time.
If you had originally said “I really want to replace my gauges”…
Steve D.
Steve D wrote:
[quote]bavarian3 wrote:
[quote]Steve D wrote:
[quote]bavarian3 wrote:
Is that true? Other than redline on the tach, what’s the difference?
Steve D.[/quote]
155MPH wrote:
Both correct. That’s not the point though. :silly:[/quote]
Really? Not to put words in your mouth, but here’s your original post.
If you want to argue pointlessly, give fair warning that you are just trying to kill time.
If you had originally said “I really want to replace my gauges”…
Steve D.[/quote]
Okay… next time I know. Thank you Time Killer Leader.
Rough crowd…
Steve D wrote:
[quote] give fair warning that you are just trying to kill time.
Steve D.[/quote]
I thought that’s what the internet was all about! :laugh:
Hey man,
I hear where you are coming from! It would look cleaner, and you are killing yourself, and costing yourself money for a cluster that is never going to be seen, but ya… as I read them (and I’m no authority on them) the rules say, you need to swap the clusters.
If it helps at all, most of the SpecE30 folks that have telemetrics are users of the Traqmate. Not that the Stack setup isn’t way better - but… the ability to trade info between each other is a great thing - one of the few things in this deal that falls under the category of “everyone else is doing it”. Not pushing you one direction or another, but just something to think about…