Clean Driving and the 2010 Schedule

#1

Yep, someone has been making a list of the fender benders on track.
No, it is not pretty.Perhaps I should list the racer names that haven’t hit or been hit???
Yes, credit is due to the audience for working out the majority of the problems without too much dissention.

At the start of each new year we have the same discussion about car-to-car contact. Seems we always come back to the CCRs and a plea to Jim Pantas and Tom Henning and Chuck Taylor to “do something.” What it is we ask for, well I can’t recall.

What is the plea for 2010?

RP

#2

Patton wrote:

[quote]Yep, someone has been making a list of the fender benders on track.
No, it is not pretty.Perhaps I should list the racer names that haven’t hit or been hit???[/quote]
Sadly, the list of those not involved in car to car contact is probably shorter.

[quote]Yes, credit is due to the audience for working out the majority of the problems without too much dissention.

At the start of each new year we have the same discussion about car-to-car contact. Seems we always come back to the CCRs and a plea to Jim Pantas and Tom Henning and Chuck Taylor to do somethig…well I can’t recall.

What is the plea for 2010?[/quote]
I’d like to see the list you have with cars called out for each incident. I think I know what it would show, but having a full list would (at the least) be enlightening.

I’ve not been around long enough to know if this year’s carnage was unusual, but it seemed but it seemed excessive to me.

#3

Jim, it is just notes on a scribble pad that I’ve made since 2007. Kinda helps me know who I’m racing with. Could be used if it comes to matter. See the original question that was posed.

Hint:one of the two Patton’s has a clean record, the other not-so.

Regards, RP

#4

“What is the plea for 2010?”

Absolute rule enforcement, NASA CCR’s and spec e30. I’d even be in favor of a penalty for bringing a car to the track that wasn’t found to be legal. Bend the rules in qualifying, you get to start a lap down.

Enduro rules need to be addressed. I lost so many races in the pits this year. This series is supposed to be about equal cars and equal preparation without spending a lot of money. If I’m going to beat my buddy Jimbo, I need a fuel cell and two quick dump cans. IMO, the fuel cell in the trunk isn’t safe in an e30. It eliminates the crush zone by removing the spare. Also, enduro’s over four hours require so much work to the car that a race the next day isn’t possible. If Enduro racers want to race the next day, they better plan on bringing a pit crew and a boat load of parts. Again, isn’t this supposed to be inexpensive? Well…it isn’t.

#5

I’d like to know how much, if any, different from other groups we really are. I think a certain amount is going to happen in wheel to wheel racing no matter what. Having said that, there is a huge difference between close racings rub, tap, bump, etc. and someone who consistently causes problems by driving erratically, way above their level or is just a dumbass all together.

The key is to be able to recognize the situation and act appropriately. I was nearly T-Boned coming down the hill towards turn 12 this weekend at Road Atlanta by someone who was still warming up his tires on a green lap. Chuck happened to see it from behind and promptly addressed the situation either with the guy or through the officials I’m not sure, and something was done immediately. I’d think most everybody would be embarrassed to some extent by being called out for dumb moves and make a change.

We are after all “Amateurs” so I’d not necessarily call anyone an idiot right off, but let them know they need to pay more attention. If you think you can talk to the person reasonably about whatever the situation is, you should do so. If your angry then either wait or speak with an official. I think the system is good if used properly and I believe it will always go back to “know who your racing”.

I have been hit/tapped at some point or another at nearly every event particularly at CMP. It doesn’t bother me and I am not pissed at anyone because I recognize 1 that non of it was intentional and 2 most everybody will come up afterwards and say ,hey man sorry about that. I lost my younger brother to an accident which was absolutely the worst experience of my life so I do have an incredible respect for what can happen. I will always do anything possible to avoid risking my life or anyone else’s or even so much as tapping someone for a trophy, bragging rights or money. At the same time it is wheel to wheel racing, some things are going to happen, anyone is free to run DE or TT if they want to.

So far, the only time I’ve been angry is from someone else’s over reaction, then I have just enough redneck in me to act like I’m running circle track.

Now, I have not been in a situation quite as extreme as say Levie’s, where I’d probably fear for my life so maybe my opinion will change.

My .01

#6

“The key is to be able to recognize the situation and act appropriately. I was nearly T-Boned coming down the hill towards turn 12 this weekend at Road Atlanta by someone who was still warming up his tires on a green lap. Chuck happened to see it from behind and promptly addressed the situation either with the guy or through the officials I’m not sure, and something was done immediately. I’d think most everybody would be embarrassed to some extent by being called out for dumb moves and make a change.”

One of the reason I do not run MA on a regular basis. Chris Cobetto always mentions it in the drivers meeting and someone always screwed it up, After the 2nd time coming over roller coaster at VIR on a green track, only to find 2 or 3 cars weaving, I gave up.

Clear cut things like this and passing under yellow are easy to deal with…most “racing contact” is not.

At some tracks and some weekends I am with Gasman, I would rather just run the enduro and run my own comfortable pace, other times I am out to win (hint Charlotte and CMP) and will run as hard as possible. Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes smart, sometimes both. Eventually if you race long enough the luck will run out. Last race at CMP, both Saturday and Sunday I knew I had to make some serious moves to stay in front of both Travis and Johan. On Saturday I decided not to take a corner that a Miata decided to race me into, a split second call that may or may not have saved all 3 of us damage and may or may not have cost me the race. On Sunday I knew what I had to do, I could not hesitate to make a pass, It all turned out well but I know it will not be like that every time. I have totaled out a spec e30 in the past, I try to know who I am racing and drive accordingly.

As far as rules and officials etc. It is hard to change behavior. Some people are more willing to hang it out there than others, and that is the nature of racing, I am all for harsh penalties for people that do dumb stuff, especially repeatedly but I think some of you are looking to change the nature of what we do. I enjoy it pretty much the way it is.

I would be in favor of standing starts at CMP however…

Al

#7

Gasman wrote:

[quote]“What is the plea for 2010?”

Absolute rule enforcement, NASA CCR’s and spec e30.[/quote]
Amen, brother.

I think we should have tech that is more invasive than just rolling over the scales. But who bears the cost and hassle? I think we should be self-policing and impose a compliance fee ($10 per entry?) so we can have some NASA tools (camber gauge, toe plates, what else?). You know what a greater level of tech would get us? Proof that virtually everyone is compliant virtually every lap.

Don’t confuse low cost racing with low cost. Never has been, never will be. The rules are what they are. I’d be interested to hear what rule changes you have submitted to Jerry and the other powers that be. Prep to the absolute limit of them (and exploit any gray areas) or know that someone else will.

The fuel cell is legal. Is it less safe than someone’s rusty 20 year old saddle tank? Dunno. I bet it is safer in all impacts except a rear-end impact (which Jim “tested” earlier this year).

Expecting to be able to run long enduros and the sprints the following day without help to do a complete checkout & replace wear items? Crazy.

Since the enduro grouping encompasses more than SE30, certain allowances have to be made to keep all the cars competitive (open tire, fuel cell so SE30 can do 90 minutes like a Miata, etc.).

PS - “Pit crews” are pretty cheap. For about a grand, you can race all 3 days with enduro support and between-race prep – and NEVER touch the car. If you don’t think that is worth it, ask yourself at 7 pm on Sunday of the next race weekend. :wink:

#8

I actually have the Smart Camber tool, toe plates, Smart Strings and scales for that matter. With the exception of the scales, I always have them at the track with me. If anyone wants to go through the effort, and I am at the event, I’ve got no problem with the use of my tools (so there would be no cost to the series).

I agree that we should all be legal, I’d just hate to see our series become petty as I saw quite often in SCCA with my Dad through the years. Its suppose to be fun so it shouldnt be a burden on anyone. There are things within our group I’ve noticed which are not “Exactly by the book” but I don’t for a minute think they have anything to do with a competitive edge. I use to imagine that everyone who ran 4 seconds faster than me “Had to be cheating somehow”. I now realize that it was nothing more than self inflicted coping because guess what, other than more dents, bondo and seat time, nothings different about my car and I’m nearly 4 sec.s faster from a year or so ago.

Point is, when making yourself feel better about finishing behind your buddy, theres a difference between someone running an illegal computer, overbuilt motor etc. and someone who doesnt have a piece of plastic installed behind the headlights (yes I know you don’t have to have that anymore just an example)

How sweet would your improved finish position, no matter where that was, really be if you were illegal anyway?

#9

I do not know the history in your region. In Nor Cal we do not have SpecE30 issues at every event. For the most part it is clean driving.
In addition we in Tech take the money we collect from HPDE and Annuals done at the track and put it in a bank account. That is how we have picked up a few small items for Tech.

#10

rsafreno wrote:

[quote]
In addition we in Tech take the money we collect from HPDE and Annuals done at the track and put it in a bank account. That is how we have picked up a few small items for Tech.[/quote]

You guys collect money from HPDE? Wow! I never thought of that before. In Feb at CMP we need to have a couple of our larger SpecE30 types walk around the DE parking areas and tell the DE drivers that they either fork over $10 to the racers for “insurance” or “something bad could happen”.

#11

Funny Scott. :wink:

#12

There is a list of inspection stations for HPDE that will perform the inspection free of charge. If the participants do not get their cars inspected before showing up then there is a 40 charge at the track. Exception is if there are no inspection stations near them. When I did HPDE I always took my car to get it inspected before the event just like I was supposed to. It was not a driver I had to tow it.
Same goes with race car annuals. The racers are supposed to have their annuals done before they get to the track. It is usually about 60. At the track it is 80 for an annual. Same exception as HPDE.
Unless there has been a change since I last read the CCR it spells out getting your cars inspected before coming to the track.
Just another example. In impound if you are not wearing Nomex socks it is a safety violation. It will cost 50. This money goes to the safety crews to purchase and maintain safety equipment.
Bottom line is if you do what you are supposed to do it will not cost you.

#13

Richard, thanks for the clarifications.
The Southeast region is a bit more, how best to say, lax with the technicalities. I can see where the HPDE inspections and safety enforcements can work for a better series.

Regards, RP

#14

Ranger wrote:

[quote]rsafreno wrote:

[quote]
In addition we in Tech take the money we collect from HPDE and Annuals done at the track and put it in a bank account. That is how we have picked up a few small items for Tech.[/quote]

You guys collect money from HPDE? Wow! I never thought of that before. In Feb at CMP we need to have a couple of our larger SpecE30 types walk around the DE parking areas and tell the DE drivers that they either fork over $10 to the racers for “insurance” or “something bad could happen”.[/quote]

Something bad like banging on Ranger garage door at 1 AM :woohoo:

In all seriousness, I’m down with rules enforcement. I’m not down with changing rules unless there’s good cause and little to no $$$ impact.

I’d hate to see us go nuts-o with policing each other. I trust my fellow racers to not bend the rules to gain an unfair advantage or just out-right cheat. Sure some are not running a spec exhaust… but there’s no real advantage in doing so from the dyno’s I’ve seen. They are some grey areas in the rules, those who take advantage of those loop holes are, for the most part, within the rules.

Fuel cells are legal. It’s up to drivers to decide if they want or need one. All fuel cell that I know of, were installed due to starvation or other issues.

I think if we start nit-picking every little thing, it’ll become a very slippery slope and almost every car has some “violation” of some sort. But 97% of them are things that don’t really give anyone an advantage.

If we can just enforce the rules as they are written, we won’t need rule changes. If you think someone is breaking a rule, discuss it at the track… don’t just throw accusation on the board around. I’m pretty sure that how the rules say to handle it.

Contact… I’d love to see use repeat 2007, when we didn’t have any serious contact. If we can run like we did in the IFU3 without hitting each other, then we should be able to run every race that way. The biggest issue, as I see it, is we need to figure out a way to share the track with the other classes. And they need to work with us on making that happen. I have to think none of us want to be on either end of a car getting balled up.

Once or twice Carter named names and posted rules infraction and/or any points acquired. I think that was pretty good motivation for folks to keep thing a bit more in check. That and actually handing out the points will probably keep that sh!t in check.

As for enduros, I have it on good authority by those “powers to be” that enduro rules are going to be strongly enforced in 2010. But I think that discussion is better to be taken up outside SE30…

Bottom line: I race with Southeast Spec E30 because it’s fun, I enjoy the company and the over-all attitude y’all bring to the track. I’d hate to see that change (too much).

#15

Well said Scott MC, I had fun in 2009 and cant wait for 2010.

#16

Ditto. :woohoo:

#17

Scott, I know fuel cells are legal and all is good with the rules. The only problem I have with them is the crush zone in the back of the car is completely eliminated by removing the spare tire. You may or may not recall my fairly serious accident at T7 several years ago when I backed the car into the wall. If the spare tire hadn’t been there, the car would have been completely destroyed and it is unknown if injury may have resulted. Aside from that, it is impossible for me to compete against someone that has one. Jim can put 10 gallons of gas in his car in less that two minutes with quick dump cans, it takes me eight minutes or more with my standard 5 gallon can with the flow restrictor in the fill neck. The six minute difference equates to three laps at most tracks. It is impossible to make up the loss of time in the pits with compatible lap times.

Does this explain it better?

edit: regarding rule enforcement. NASA CCR’s state that you have to come into the pits to see the race director anytime you have body contact. It doesn’t say you can come in to discuss it after the race you won. I wonder how much body contact we would have if this rule were enforced?

#18

Gasman wrote:

which section of the nasa ccr is this in? i’ve never seen it before but it would definitely change things i think…

as far as the spare tire well issue goes, cant you remove the spare tire in spec e30 (regardless of fuel cell use)? in a rear impact, hopefully your roll cage would protect the driver…i’d hate to think all you were relying on is a spare tire…if it’s a real safety issue then maybe it should be addressed in the rules though i have never heard of anyone getting hurt in a race car because the spare tire was removed and don’t know of many classes that require a spare tire…

#19

Gasman wrote:

This is in the HPDE section of the CCR. Is there a similar rule for racing?
6.9 Body Contact
Body contact cannot and WILL NOT be tolerated. Anyone involved in body contact must report immediately to the head of pit lane. Harsh penalties will be imposed, including but not limited to, permanent ejection from NASA.

#20

I had a great year running this year. I also had some coming together with some folks, but nothing significant enough to really get upset over. First one we actually reported but were told not to worry about it since neither of us was upset. After that we didn’t bother since it was so insignificant.

I will say there are some people I’m more afraid of being next to, but there are others I will run wheel to wheel with all day. Quite frankly I’m not close enough to the leaders to be racing my tail off. If somebody is way faster then me and we’re 2 laps in to the race I’m not going to keep them behind me, but on the last race that won’t be the case.

Case and point is Rick Mariani. I’ve run with him in MA and knew how aggressive he is on the starts. So on Sunday I stayed out of the way and he went all in like he does in every race I’ve seen him do. But, I had the benefit of knowing his behavior. It’s tough to make the same assumptions about folks we don’t know.

I agree with others though. I’m not sure that I’d be this happy if something like Jim’s accident happened to me. As a matter of fact I’d be pretty ticked off and would be promoting 13/13 rule!