Battery Boxes and ballast

#1

It even has its own thread now!

As I see it so far, it appears that the stance is that if there are any holes in the bulkhead area that the passenger compartment is now considered to include the trunk. This would include any of the holes on the top/package shelf area resides.

In this case, it is mandatory that you have a battery box that fully encases the battery, like a marine case. There is NO stipulation other than that.

The SE30 rules don’t address this particular area so the rules fall back to the CCR from my understanding.

This would mean that all SE30 cars are required to run a battery box unless you managed to completely seal off the rear bulkhead area. This seems odd, since I’m pretty sure most people just have a strap on their battery.

Which brings me to the other rule that seems odd. You are allowed to place ballast anywhere you want in the vehicle now provided it is secured properly. Why is there a limit on the battery hold down weight?

These questions are all brought up as I ran my car across the scales and without me in the car it was 2,400lbs. I still have all the heat shields, HVAC and heater core, all the undercoating, etc. I have to add 150 lbs back into the car, and this is about to get real expensive.

#2

I wouldn’t worry about the battery box if every other car in the series is running without one.

On the weight, I feel your pain. Ballast is not cheap. I think the reason for having section limitations is in the off chance that it comes loose in a crash, you don’t want a 150 lb projectile in the car. Not that 50 lbs is good, but it’s less bad…

The point was made this weekend that, since we do have some light cars/drivers out there, that ballast total should be unlimited in the passenger compartment. As it stands, you will be forced to run a spare tire in order to make weight.

#3

Oh I’m fully aware that i will need to buy a tire/wheel.

The question was about the battery box. I’m planning to build my own. There are no limits on the box and it says I have to have one. I was planning on a 1" thick stell plated box that will probably end up near 100lbs.

It isn’t ballast, but the battery would be able to withstand a nuclear blast.

#4

Are you building it in the trunk, or do you have 3 friends coming over to help you lift it into the trunk.

Think you should get the car on the scales to confirm that all that weight is necessary in that spot?

#5

I have done this work…

:slight_smile:

If I get it all over there, the cornerweights are within 10lbs of each other, crossweights and F/R.

#6

That is amazing how light your car is. I could probably get to that weight with No Driver (200 lbs), No Gas (96 lbs), No Radio, No Traq mate, No Fire system, No Spacers, No Tread, No Oil, Cut some bars out of the cage, and small Dry Cell battery. I would be stoked if I was in your situation. If you can corner weights within 10lbs of each other WOW, you will have an awesome handling car. You should be delighted, and you still get to defrost your windshield!

#7

Enormous bank vault battery box it is! And I can’t say I’m excited about it. It’s the time consumption of attempting to locate all this steel/lead and having someone machine the pieces/do the welding.

I am somewhat baffled by these heavy cars.

I did find though that now since we can remove the evap canister, if you bend the bracket a lil’bit a simple summit racing 1 quart catch tank will fit right in there with no other mods needed. Even the stock hose will reach with a little…work.

#8

While it is a holdover to the old rules that restricted the location of ballast, until the rule is changed a heavy battery box/mount would make the illegal.

If you want to put weight over the right rear wheel, bolt weights to the rear bulkhead in the trunk.

#9

While it is a holdover to the old rules that restricted the location of ballast, until the rule is changed a heavy battery box/mount would make the illegal.

If you want to put weight over the right rear wheel, bolt weights to the rear bulkhead in the trunk.[/quote]

Where does the rule say I cannot have a heavy battery box? Definitely states I can have an encased battery box.

I would agree that if my battery HOLD DOWN was over 6 lbs it would be illegal.

#10

I think the key word you are missing is system. Go ahead and make your box at your own risk, but I would hate to see you cause trivial issues in tech.

#11

You’re also assuming that you want that weight in the same place as the battery. That’s not where I have my 125 lbs.
Just sayin…

#12

We spent a few hours figuring this out. It’s exactly where I need it.

#13

[quote=“Z3SpdDmn” post=63608]You’re also assuming that you want that weight in the same place as the battery. That’s not where I have my 125 lbs.
Just sayin…[/quote]
+1!

It’s generally better to add weight near the car CG which is somewhere forward the fuel tank. The further you move weight from the CG impacts your turning ability. If your cross weight is significantly out of whack, a different option is spring jacking with spacers while adding weight near the CG.

#14

If I had unlimited access to scales, I’d be all for spending the time to eek out the exact corrected position for the weight.

I don’t have that though. When I did have the scales in my garage last weekend it was very clear that the RR needs most of the weight.

What is fairly obvious at this point is nobody can make up their minds, so instead of dealing with a bunch of confusions and overzealous tech people, I’ll probably just add the weight near where the passenger seat would go and call it a day.

#15

While it is a holdover to the old rules that restricted the location of ballast, until the rule is changed a heavy battery box/mount would make the illegal.

If you want to put weight over the right rear wheel, bolt weights to the rear bulkhead in the trunk.[/quote]

Where does the rule say I cannot have a heavy battery box? Definitely states I can have an encased battery box.

I would agree that if my battery HOLD DOWN was over 6 lbs it would be illegal.[/quote]
The way I see it if the battery mounts to the box then the box is part of the battery “system” and is limited to 6lbs.

If the battery doesn’t mount to the box (the box can be removed without dismounting or disconnecting the battery) then the box is ballast and is governed by that rule. In that case bolting 4ea 25lb weights in would be easier and cheaper.

As to a battery box, I would further argue that it is neither required nor allowed. 3.1 clearly states that the Spec E30 rules (rather than the CCR) apply since there is a rule about the battery. And 3.2 disallows a battery box since it isn’t permitted in 8.16.

#16

Interesting interpretation that the box counts as the “hold down system.”

[quote=“jlevie” post=63630]
As to a battery box, I would further argue that it is neither required nor allowed. 3.1 clearly states that the Spec E30 rules (rather than the CCR) apply since there is a rule about the battery. And 3.2 disallows a battery box since it isn’t permitted in 8.16.[/quote]

If not for the first part of the post. It is required. CCR states that if the battery is in the passenger compartment, you are required to have a battery box.

Then we need to address what constitutes “the passenger compartment.” My cage builder removed material in the bulkhead to have the cage pass through. There was also apparently a ski passthrough, so I have 3 decent sized holes on the bulkhead. I’m assuming my car came with a ski pass so it was OEM and unmodified, and I believe the rules allow for material removal for cages.

With that said, it has been the opinion of some that if there are ANY holes in the bulkhead, it would be considered the passenger compartment, and would be required to have a battery box.

So, if the passenger compartment does NOT include the trunk, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If it does, there are contradicting rules here.

I don’t want this to turn into a Home Depot experiment…you know where you start a job and end up going back to the depot like 5 times because you forget something each time you do it, or your friend comes over in the middle of the project and says, “Uhh, you can’t do it that way.” And 5 trips to home depot aren’t cheap usually…

As someone stated on another forum, my intention is not to attempt driving a Mack Truck through a loophole in the rules, it is merely to clarify what is already there or get it changed to ensure it is clear.

Thanks for the comments, things seem to be moving in the right direction.

#17

Simple solution. Build a normal battery box and just do like DeVinney and coil up as much battery cable as you want where ever you want in the trunk for weight. :smiley:

#18

I don’t disagree with the fact that we need to clarify “passenger compartment”, but the cage passing through the rear bulkhead doesn’t have anything to do with it.

CCR paragraph 15.6.11 says “…They may go through any rear bulkhead(s) provided the bulkhead(s) is sealed around the cage braces…”

Those holes have to be “sealed” either way. It’s all the other holes that we need to clear up.

I would argue that the battery is not in the passenger compartment, but instead in the “trunk compartment” as mentioned several places the SE30 regs. They are also pretty clearly differentiated by 9.3.13.2. “Ballast is permitted, and shall be securely mounted within the passenger compartment, or within the trunk.” This makes it sound like they are definitely different spaces.

#19

Interesting interpretation that the box counts as the “hold down system.”[/quote]
Well, if the mount is part of the box then the box is part of the mount.

[quote=“jlevie” post=63630]
As to a battery box, I would further argue that it is neither required nor allowed. 3.1 clearly states that the Spec E30 rules (rather than the CCR) apply since there is a rule about the battery. And 3.2 disallows a battery box since it isn’t permitted in 8.16.[/quote]

[quote=“Foglght”]If not for the first part of the post. It is required. CCR states that if the battery is in the passenger compartment, you are required to have a battery box.

Then we need to address what constitutes “the passenger compartment.” My cage builder removed material in the bulkhead to have the cage pass through. There was also apparently a ski passthrough, so I have 3 decent sized holes on the bulkhead. I’m assuming my car came with a ski pass so it was OEM and unmodified, and I believe the rules allow for material removal for cages.[/quote]
The ski pass was an option and could have been installed at the factory or after delivery. The rear bulkhead of every car I’ve ever seen have an easily removed panel for the ski pass through. If the ski pass option was installed that panel would have been removed. The holes are easy to fix. Cut some sheet metal to fit around the bars and to cover the ski pass. Weld or pop rivet those in and the car is like every other Spec E30.

I believe that interpretation is taken as valid if, and only if, there is a trunk mounted fuel cell or parts of the fuel system in the trunk. I’ve not heard of that interpretation being applied to a Spec E30 in the usual configuration.

Not necessarily:

3.1. “Shall” is mandatory, “may not” is prohibitive, and “may” is permissive. If there is a conflict between the Regulations and the CCR, the Regulations supersede the CCR. If an item is not addressed in the Regulations then the item is controlled by the CCR.

There is a rule for the battery and it doesn’t mention a battery box, thus the CCR doesn’t apply but 3.2 does:

3.2. If the Regulations do not specifically permit a modification, it may not be made.

The car did not come with a battery box and the battery rule does not specifically address a box.

That is just my take on the subject. Other Series Directors may have other opinions. The nice thing about rules, regulations and specifications is that there are many ways they can be interpreted.

#20

[quote=“jlevie” post=63637]
Well, if the mount is part of the box then the box is part of the mount.[/quote]
Interesting.

I already got a ruling from the RD, so this is all moot at this point.

Would you consider the driveshaft to be a part of the transmission? I mean, it attaches to it…

Tried to insert smiley, didn’t work.

[quote=“jlevie” post=63630]
The ski pass was an option and could have been installed at the factory or after delivery. The rear bulkhead of every car I’ve ever seen have an easily removed panel for the ski pass through. If the ski pass option was installed that panel would have been removed. The holes are easy to fix. Cut some sheet metal to fit around the bars and to cover the ski pass. Weld or pop rivet those in and the car is like every other Spec E30.

I believe that interpretation is taken as valid if, and only if, there is a trunk mounted fuel cell or parts of the fuel system in the trunk. I’ve not heard of that interpretation being applied to a Spec E30 in the usual configuration.[/quote]

11.4.9 Battery
The battery shall be securely fastened to the car. No Bungee cords or rubber cords may
be used to function as the sole hold down mechanism. An electrically non-conductive
material must cover the positive battery terminal. Any battery located inside the driver’s
compartment should be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis (or tub) in a
marine type battery case. True dry cell batteries may be mounted without a surrounding
case, however a case is still recommended.

This is the rule I was referring to which doesn’t say much about fuel cells.

[quote=“jlevie” post=63630]
Not necessarily:

3.1. “Shall” is mandatory, “may not” is prohibitive, and “may” is permissive. If there is a conflict between the Regulations and the CCR, the Regulations supersede the CCR. If an item is not addressed in the Regulations then the item is controlled by the CCR.

There is a rule for the battery and it doesn’t mention a battery box, thus the CCR doesn’t apply but 3.2 does:

3.2. If the Regulations do not specifically permit a modification, it may not be made.

The car did not come with a battery box and the battery rule does not specifically address a box.

That is just my take on the subject. Other Series Directors may have other opinions. The nice thing about rules, regulations and specifications is that there are many ways they can be interpreted.[/quote]

This goes back to my original interpretation of the battery being in the OEM location.

I think it is 8.16 that addresses the whole battery strap thing. Been told repeatedly that I’d be dinged if I didn’t have one. My battery is in the OEM location, ergo I don’t need a strap, but that hasn’t been the opinion of many here.

There is that one spot where the SE30 rules address a thin coorelation between passenger compartment and trunk. So, I’ll leave it at that.

Again, got a ruling on the battery box thing from the RD.

I do like the idea of the battery cable…but expensive.