225s

#1

The forum has been dead for weeks so I want to get a heated debate started. I honestly think switching to 225/45/15s will result in spending less money on tires per weekend. I borrowed the rest of the Carroll Smith collection from my brother to see if I could quote him on it but he only talks about undertired cars in terms of to much power which is not our problem. Others have said that we will just drive faster if we had wider tires but I think in addition to driving faster we will put less heat into them and get more than the extra 13 dollars worth out of the tires. Start arguing!

#2

Re. wider tires don’t get as hot. Support your arguement. The basis for this assertion is what?

#3

The basis for my assertion is autox experience. You know I’ve read all the books. I wish I could support my claims with the comments of a famous race engineer but I can’t.

#4

My brother also thought that wider tires would be less dollars per weekend and that’s just common sense. He couldn’t find anything to back it up either.

#5

If you don’t have a theory as to why wider tires might be less stressed on the track than there isn’t much to debate.

IMO we will attempt to consume all the traction available from any tire. Therefore no matter what tire we use we will ask from it as much as it can give.

The way to save money is to race with a $90 tire.

#6

I like that idea but its a 109$ dollar tire. The hankook rs-3.

#7

wider tires don’t get as hot I think is a fact , not a question.

#8

[quote=“Ranger” post=64436]If you don’t have a theory as to why wider tires might be less stressed on the track than there isn’t much to debate.

IMO we will attempt to consume all the traction available from any tire. Therefore no matter what tire we use we will ask from it as much as it can give.

The way to save money is to race with a $90 tire.[/quote]

A $90 race slick that can’t be shaved. That’s the only way, or to get a DOT race tire that wears like Iron and costs $150.

#9

[quote=“turbo329is” post=64439]wider tires don’t get as hot I think is a fact , not a question.[/quote] Question common wisdom. Require logical arguements based on plausible physics.

Alternately, and I personally support this mind you, allow yourself to be swayed by the hot vacuous chick the Marketing dept. rented to stand next to their [strike]unsupported assertions[/strike] tire.

#10

Lap time wise, wider tires will help at some tracka and hurt at others…I run 225’s on my GTS car…I think they would help at CMP, but as far as lasting longer, doubt it, A heat cycle is a heat cycle.

I ran 175/70/13 tires on an RX7 at Charlotte years ago, that car was fast as hell…less drag.

Al

#11

I have some real data from running 225/45-15’s on a Spec E30. The year that we ran my old car in the SE Enduro season I had 225/45-15 R888’s on the car for most of the season. The car was slightly faster and the tires wear was slightly better, when figured as time on the track. But, the heat cycle effect was the same.

Since tires are good for a limited number of heat cycles, a reduction in wear from a wider tires is of no importance. Well, that is true if you are replacing the tires as they heat cycle out. But if you are going to run the tires until they cord you could get a bit longer life from a wider tire. I don’t know what the really fast guys are doing, but I’ve found that I need to replace the tires after six heat cycles. At that point the tires aren’t worn very much.

#12

As Jim was saying…wider tires would probably wear longer in front because wider tires don’t need so much camber. And we are obviously camber limited in front so we wear the outside half of our tires. In the old days this would have been nice because the tires did pretty well until they corded. But now that our tires heat cycle out by the time we leave the paddock, tire “wear” isn’t much of an issue.

That being said, I don’t have much experience with wider tires, so I’m mostly sitting back and waiting for interesting arguements for and against.

#13

I posted in the SE30 midwest section:

Hoosier is willing to help us do a test day. The SM guys are already running on the SM6 tire in SCCA. Realistically the SM6 is about a 225 tire when it says a 205, its just the section width games all the tire guys play.

The other main advantage is a much stiffer sidewall, requiring less camber. It does have a higher hysteresis, but its still a superior tire.

The question really became, what would the group want? Would you rather have a cheaper tire, or contingency? Personally, I’d rather have a cheaper tire so all can take advantage of the less expensive rubber (which is usually the most expensive part of racing).

The absolute cheapest I can find RA1s is through tires direct. The total shipped to my house was $654. That works out to $163/tire. I’m betting we could probably get a better deal than that.

Again, this is just something that was thrown out there to have a realistic back to back where the Hoosier guys would support in some shape or form. One wouldn’t be able to just throw them on and expect great results, as the tire pressures and slignment settings would have to be dinked with to get it all right.

Ask some SCCA SM guys how they like the new tire…no more shaving advantages, which IMO is the biggest downfall of the RA1.

#14

What we, as racers, might want is only part of the equation. The other part, that is really the driver, is the Toyo deal with NASA. As long as that is in place I don’t see a change in tires “on the horizon”.

The only real justification for a change in tires in Spec E30 would be if it reduces cost. The tire could be slower, but that isn’t important.

#15

[quote=“jlevie” post=64449]What we, as racers, might want is only part of the equation. The other part, that is really the driver, is the Toyo deal with NASA. As long as that is in place I don’t see a change in tires “on the horizon”.

The only real justification for a change in tires in Spec E30 would be if it reduces cost. The tire could be slower, but that isn’t important.[/quote]

What exactly is the deal? Otherwise the conversation is moot.

#16

[quote=“Foglght” post=64451][quote=“jlevie” post=64449]What we, as racers, might want is only part of the equation. The other part, that is really the driver, is the Toyo deal with NASA. As long as that is in place I don’t see a change in tires “on the horizon”.

The only real justification for a change in tires in Spec E30 would be if it reduces cost. The tire could be slower, but that isn’t important.[/quote]

What exactly is the deal? Otherwise the conversation is moot.[/quote]
I have no real information about that, only rumors that some arrangement exists at the National level.

#17

It is my understanding that there is a contract between Toyo and NASA. I am not sure how long it is but I think it was renewed. My tire supplier talked me out of buying two sets this season like I usually do at the beginning of the season. He has information suggesting that Toyo is testing a new tire that will not need shaving. He is a big fan of the Hoosier as it is easier to supply on short notice as no shaving is needed. Everyone gets the same tire off the truck. He did not want me to have an extra set of tires to use up if a change was implemented. Now this is in no way an indication that a change would happen that quick. But I would rather not have a surplus of tires to use up if a change comes.

NOTE to TOYO, Build it and we will come.

#18

We finished 2nd overall in the So Cal region last year and tires was our main focus. I honestly think that the width of the tire or cycling out wasn’t the problem. We would rotate the tires on the rims 180 every race and our problem was cording the out side edge. With as much roll over as these cars have because of a very weak spring and sway bar set up we never used 70% of the center of the tire. If you are pushing your car to its limit all the time you will be wearing the outside of your outside tire and the inside of your inside tire. We run as a standard set up ( not all the time ) 3.5 Deg camber in front and 2.5 in the rear. I would love to see a stiffer sping and swaybar set up or even a coil over set up would be even better and would make for a safer race car all around. Keeping the cars flatter so you do not have to put so much camber in and keeping the boot of the tire on the race track.

#19

[quote=“Foglght” post=64451][quote=“jlevie” post=64449]What we, as racers, might want is only part of the equation. The other part, that is really the driver, is the Toyo deal with NASA. As long as that is in place I don’t see a change in tires “on the horizon”.

The only real justification for a change in tires in Spec E30 would be if it reduces cost. The tire could be slower, but that isn’t important.[/quote]

What exactly is the deal? Otherwise the conversation is moot.[/quote]
Carter told us 3-4yrs ago something along the lines of… if we as a community had a strong consensus re. switching to a specific tire that we could do it". I don’t recall what his exact words were but he definately gave us the impression that if SpecE30 wanted to leave Toyo, NASA wouldn’t stand in our way.

How much are the Miaters paying for their Hoosiers? IMO opinion the difference would have to be significant or it wouldn’t be worth the trouble of lobbying for. Also, we’d need to be comfortable that we could get 3 good weekends out of the tires.

#20

My experience with Hoosiers was mostly in FWD cars so it doesn’t compare. The SM guys are paying I believe $166/tire.

I am all about setting up something with them to actually test the Hoosier on a test day (maybe a friday) just to see if they will hold up. This has been offered to us by Hoosier, so I can’t see what it could hurt. Gingerman is probably the closest to those guys and has lots of open track days. If interested let me know. Worst that can happen is we find out we don’t like them and motor on.

Previously in FWD cars I could get a set to last about 8 heat cycles on a car that was camber challenged and exhibited the same issues you guys do with the Toyos. The R6 was not out long enough for me to tell you the difference it would have made.